BodyTalk & Quantum Quackery

[Mefiante]

@bluegray V post:19

… I promise I will give you my honest opinion [of a free, introductory BodyTalk session].

Has this happened at all? If so, what is your opinion or would you rather not publicise it?

Elsewhere, QXCI/SCIO has been labelled “high-tech hocus-pocus” by a physicist. The irony is that this selfsame physicist is a long-standing member of the homoeopathy and “energy medicine” fraternity. The rebuttal (or what passes for one) to the “hocus-pocus” charge is so fraught with errors of fact that it is hard not to laugh. Ultimately, the “rebuttal” is nothing more than a launch pad for something no less quacked called “Inergetix-CoRe” that allegedly works on the same principles but represents a, uhm, quantum leap forward.

This quackery seems positively to invite all manner of charlatanry because the technology is apparently marketed and sold through Quantum Knights, a Canadian organisation that uses multi-level marketing tactics à la Amway. An installation will cost you upwards of US $10,000.00, which you can (partly) recoup by recruiting lots and lots of other dupes to buy this nonsense from you and sell it on to yet others.

Sheesh, and these people will say that they have their patients’ best interests at heart.

'Luthon64

[bluegray]

@Anacoluthon64 post:21

@bluegray V post:19

… I promise I will give you my honest opinion [of a free, introductory BodyTalk session].

Has this happened at all? If so, what is your opinion or would you rather not publicise it?

No it has not, but that is my fault. I didn’t have time when she made the offer and then totally forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me :

[botswanaskeptic]

I wrote, somewhat skeptically, about BodyTalk for the Botswana Guardian recently as they have come to Botswana to spread their silliness. You can see the article here Botswana Skeptic: Talk to your body? - Botswana Guardian.

[Sentinel]

@botswanaskeptic post:23

I wrote, somewhat skeptically, about BodyTalk for the Botswana Guardian recently as they have come to Botswana to spread their silliness. You can see the article here Botswana Skeptic: Talk to your body? - Botswana Guardian.

Brilliant article. I especially liked the part where you said: “The second thing it does is to help you lose weight. From your wallet.” ;D

[Avumba]

Greetings all!!

Well, I was on a mission today to find more information about Body Talk. Needless to say that this topic caught my eye as I am a firm believer in getting the most information as I can about something that I would like to do.

Why am I interested in Body Talk? Well, for my own well being. I do not intend to make money out of it and I also dont want to impose it on other people. I only want to use it for myself, if it works. I am thinking of doing one session with a practitioner, to see if it works, and then maybe an introductionory course for self help.

Why do I want to go this alternative route, rather than the normal acceptable route? Well, I like to be in control of my life and my body as far as poccile, and if I can find something that can help me with this, then I will use it. I would rather spend a few minutes by myself and try to fix a cold, pain and mental wellbeing than going to a doctor, pay R150 that will give me 15 minutes of prodding, pills, antibiotics, and a quick day fix for my mental state of unsureness. Dont get me wrong, I do believe in modern medicine and I firmly believe it has its place. But for those yearly colds, IRB symptoms and overall health, I firmly believe it is in everybodies power to handle that. I just need some tools.

I am stil on a journey of discovery with “alternative medicine”. Do i believe it is a moneymaking scheme? Yes, as much as I believe that billions of dollars for medicine are unnecessarily prescribed by doctors. Do i believe that some of these Alternative Medicine Practionioners are doing it only for the money? Offcourse!! Just as I believe that there are many unethical doctors out there that make money out of their profession. Are many gulable people being taken in and fooled by some of these people? Yes!! But just as many people are fooled by doctors telling them they will live longer or get well if they take this pill or treatment.

Why do people go to these practionioners? Maybe because it works for them. Why do you believe in God, or not? Can you prove SCIENTIFICALLY It’s existince, or It’s Not existince. Probably not, but some do believe in the concept because they can see the positive EFFECT it has on them. Do you have a soul? If you think so, prove it!!

Ok, the point I want to make, is that Alternatice Medicine has its place as it has definately worked for many people. For them, they dont need the scientific proof, they only need the proof of the effect it has on them. For some of you guys, this probably wont be true Which is fine

I will do things, spend money on it, if I know it can be of value to me. Sometimes I spend my money on things that actually have no value for me in the long run, even though I thought it would, but now I can make an informed decision afterwards.

There are many things that we dont understand, and that is a wonderfull experience, in my humble opnion. It makes the excitement of discovery so much more fullfilling. Sometimes we do something that we know, in our hearts, is the right thing to do or not to do, but we cant explain that decision rather than base it on effect.

If that makes me more joyfull in life and and makes me respect myself and my fellow living beings on this planet, then I want to experience it.

So what is my viewpoint?
I am a Skeptical Alternative Medicine User, if that makes sense.

Just my thoughts

s.

[benguela]

@Avumba post:25

Ok, the point I want to make, is that Alternatice Medicine has its place as it has definately worked for many people.

Placebo has definitely worked for me. One or two sugar pills and I’m right as rain.

[Mintaka]

Hello Avumba

So glad you came along and I’m sure we’d all love to hear about the outcome of your session.

However I’m a bit worried about the evaluation system that you are going to employ in deciding whether the outcome of such an experiment is positive or not, and urge you to consider it carefully.

For instance, if a missing finger grows back, I’m sure all will be duly impressed, but I fear something more subjective like “feeling more relaxed afterwards” just won’t cut it for most on this forum.

You prolly don’t need me to tell you the importance of defining your pass/ fail criteria (your minimum expectations) before conducting the experiment.

Best of luck, and please let us know how it turned out.

Mintaka

[Mefiante]

The real damning kicker for EPFX/QXCI/SCIO that its practitioners won’t tell you:

@<a

For several years, the QXCI was described an [sic] improved version of the EPFX. During the past few years, however, the device has been marketed mainlyu [sic] under the name EPFX or SCIO. … The device is not legally marketable in the United States as a diagnostic or treatment device, but distributors and importers get around the law by pretending that it is legitimately used as a biofeedback device for stress reduction. (My emphasis.)

In other words, the promoters of EPFX/QXCI/SCIO are not being forthright about their claims when they use the device for diagnostic and/or treatment purposes, which most of them do. One might be forgiven for thinking that such failure to disclose the full facts is contingent on more than a little self-interest.

'Luthon64

[ingwe]

Maybe the James Randi Educational Foundation will help you proove to the world that your claims hold water! You could also win the $1 million

[Mefiante]

¿Que? Er, I’m a bit lost. Whose/which claims are you referring to? ???

'Luthon64

[ingwe]

@Anacoluthon64 post:30

¿Que? Er, I’m a bit lost. Whose/which claims are you referring to? ???

'Luthon64

I am sorry the only claims worthy of JREF are those of talker1001. I did not check the dates of his last post either! I think I need a reading lesson prior to posting!!! I am sorry!

[Mintaka]

Ingwe, I am also concerned about whether it is indeed possible in principle for this Body Talk system to be authenticated. If I may be so vain as to quote myself

@Mintaka post:27

However I’m a bit worried about the evaluation system that you are going to employ in deciding whether the outcome of such an experiment is positive or not, and urge you to consider it carefully.

For instance, if a missing finger grows back, I’m sure all will be duly impressed, but I fear something more subjective like “feeling more relaxed afterwards” just won’t cut it for most on this forum.

The JREF (or its representative), and the demonstrator must agree to a test protocol (experimental design) that will unequivocally prove the truth value of the claim.

What sort of protocol do you recon might work for the Body Talk system. :-\

Mintaka

[Mefiante]

@ingwe post:31

I am sorry … I am sorry!

Nothing to apologise for, but thanks for clearing it up.

@Mintaka post:32

What sort of protocol do you recon might work for the Body Talk system. :-\

Since the system is supposedly capable of diagnosis, the test should perhaps focus on that dimension. One way would be for the practitioner to match medical conditions to the patients who have them in a series of blind sessions where no verbal communication is permitted between patient and BodyTalk practitioner. To put some numbers to it, the practitioner gets to examine three randomly chosen patients using the EPFX/QXCI/SCIO machine and once all the examinations have been completed, the practitioner matches each patient to one in a list of 23 unique précis medical case histories that give only the most significant details. The chances of succeeding with all three by pure chance is about 1:10,200 – just above the JREF’s requirement of 1:10,000 for the preliminary test. Obviously, any conditions whose presence is evident from direct sensory input would be excluded. Any information outside the scope of the case histories is to be deemed not relevant in terms of the test.

The claimed curative powers of the modality will be difficult to test but it could be done with a double blind study using both real and bogus/simulated devices that look alike on a range of common “soft” conditions like headaches, stress, lethargy, etc. If the device works as claimed, there should be differentials in curative rates between the bogus and the real devices.

'Luthon64

[Mintaka]

That sounds like a reasonable approach for evaluating the device’s diagnostic capability. The curative investigation then basically amounts to a clinical trial, not so?

Mintaka

[Mefiante]

@Mintaka post:34

The curative investigation then basically amounts to a clinical trial, not so?

Yes, that’s the gist of it. I don’t see any other way of assessing curative efficacy unless practitioners can put forward a firm commitment concerning their machine’s capacity to cure a condition that is not self-limiting and which normally requires another form of direct intervention, for example something like kidney stones. And I can’t imagine them making such claims because they are far too easily falsifiable. The touchy-feely rhetoric is much easier to sell than eminently testable promises, and it is far less likely to come back and bite you on the nose.

'Luthon64