Appreciation from you is reward indeed Mefiante…Thanx 
It almost sounds like something Rand could’ve penned. You seem to have a similar style.
I’ve read every Rand book and also her published letters so it should be no surprise that her style and indeed much of her philosophy has rubbed off on me. However, there are major differences: her linguistic skill and absolute discipline with thoughts far surpasses mine; also I don’t agree with all her philosophies such as her stand about the right of a democracy such as the US to invade countries with different (not necessarily hostile) beliefs or non-democratic governments or her stand on environmentalism etc. But then times have changed. But thanks anyway BM, I take your comment as a compliment.
It is, and I agree. I like Rand but saying it out loud is prone to getting critisism for things I also don’t agree with.
What exactly is a "decent education"? The stuff they teach at government schools (which turn out record numbers of illiterate and innumerate matriculants)?
The SA education is a long way from perfect or decent if we look at the Eastern Cape. I fail to see how you can get to Gr12 and be illiterate. The system requires that you repeat your grade until you pass or pass with support. So what exactly do you mean by “illiterate?” And I would be interested to see your source of “record numbers”. There could be record numbers of learners failing, which is still amazing considering the 30% pass rate, but I think illiterate and innumerate is inaccurate.
What I meant by “decent” was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being “decent”.
And what if the fundies flatly refuse to expose their kids to evolution? We'll soon be in a position where we would have no choice but to threaten to remove their children. It is all unnecessary: I am not aware of any clear evidence that the home schooled fundie children in fact end up more ignorant or uneducated or unskilled than the vast bulk of children "educated" in state schools.
Who’s “we”? We as in the people on here discussing it are not in a position to do anything about it! And as far as I can see the government certainly wouldn’t be in that position due to the constitution - Freedom of religion.
I agree with freedom of religion entirely, but also the freedom to explore, question and make up your own mind not be brainwashed.
I very much like your quote there 
I was making a vast generalisation in that “in theory” Ignorance is bliss and that relinquishing power and decision making to a higher being admonishes many people of the stress of taking personal responsibility for their lives. I see my colleagues in work regularly doing this. Ironically it fills me with happiness as I find it HILARIOUS! The same thing will happen when we go back after the school holidays… “Don’t worry God is in control today” Really - well why was he on holiday the last 2 weeks as well??
Anyway - I digress… I have to say as a comparison I am significantly happier than all the religious people I know- and that is because I take personal responsibility. So I guess it’s a paradox and of course entirely subjective.
Nope. That rule is countermanded by another that says a pupil may not be failed more than once in a phase. After that, he has to be promoted to the next grade, whether he passed the previous grade or not. It is therefore perfectly possible for a pupil to reach matric while being functionally illiterate. And seeing as you only need 30% in some subjects, and 40% in some others, to pass matric, and seeing as pupils who get 5% or so less than that are routinely passed anyway, it is perfectly possible to pass matric without having any meaningful understanding of any of your school work.
So what exactly do you mean by "illiterate?" And I would be interested to see your source of "record numbers". There could be record numbers of learners failing, which is still amazing considering the 30% pass rate, but I think illiterate and innumerate is inaccurate.
I mean functionally illiterate and innumerate. Yes, many of these kids can read. Give them a newspaper article to read, and they can read it. Ask them questions about the contents of the article, half of which they have to answer verbally and the other half in writing, and you will soon see what I mean. Then ask them to do some simple calculations like 32.3 x 54.2, or 53463/23, or 1/2 + 1/4 without a calculator, and you’ll see that they have not mastered elementary math either. Let them do those calculations WITH a calculator, and they still get half of them wrong, or they don’t know how to even start because they don’t know how to turn a fraction into a decimal with a calculator.
I am not just idly speculating here: I have spent the past year or two teaching and tutoring at various schools. I have seen it with my own eyes. Public education in South Africa is a disaster area, and the home schooled kids of fundies are almost certainly better off.
Mind you, it does depend on the school in question. The semi-private “model C” schools are probably among the best on the planet. What’s more, the problem does not primarily lie with the schools, but with parents, so there is actually preciously little the government CAN do about it, even if it were willing.
What I meant by "decent" was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being "decent".
You don’t need to be exposed to different world views to be happy, or to make a success. And in any event, the best way to make sure people get exposed to different world views is to teach them to read (in such a way that they actually understand what they read). If the fundie private education can achieve that, then we needn’t worry too much about them abusing their kids.
Who's "we"? We as in the people on here discussing it are not in a position to do anything about it! And as far as I can see the government certainly wouldn't be in that position due to the constitution - Freedom of religion. I agree with freedom of religion entirely, but also the freedom to explore, question and make up your own mind not be brainwashed.
In which case I am not sure where that leaves us. You seem to agree that there is nothing to be done about fundies educating their kids privately. If there is nothing we can do, there is no point lamenting it.
Personally I am not too worried about the fundie kids. Trust me, they are vastly better off than some of the completely irreligious kids I worked with last year in Pretoria’s inner city…
I really can’t be arsed to go in circles I have to much to do but…
What I meant by "decent" was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being "decent".You don’t need to be exposed to different world views to be happy, or to make a success. And in any event, the best way to make sure people get exposed to different world views is to teach them to read (in such a way that they actually understand what they read). If the fundie private education can achieve that, then we needn’t worry too much about them abusing their kids.
It wasn’t about being happy it was what IN MY VIEW constituted a decent education and one I would want for my kids.
Model C’s are definitely not some of the best on the planet - I’ve been teaching 7 years in 3 different countries and totally disagree but anyway we’ve gone a little off the point.
This could also be, but they are among the best in South Africa, which explains why there is such pressure on them to go double-medium (after which they usually rapidly get as bad as any other school). The average state school is of course ten times worse. I can understand why people would be reluctant to put their children in such schools, and I think they should have the option not to.
Perhaps the point is moot: they do in fact have that option.
There is a particular school in Randburg that I would gladly wish would go double-medium just out of spite because of their bigotry I experienced from them when I was young. I grind my teeth but I have to remember that I cannot allow myself to become like them. Bending a persons arm does not change them but creates more hate. When we ensure a person has freedom there is room to change. It so hard though. It is good that they have a choice. I really enjoyed your posts brianvds
I’ve experienced this personally, we take in leaners straight from matric every year, and I insist on a hand written essay before I even bother to meet them for an interview. The spelling is horrific in most cases, and many of them tend to write with a mixture of script and caps and of-course many of them write in abbreviations. Its scary. It doesnt end there though, I’ve had kids texting their buddies during the interview, kids that flop onto their backends and greet you with a “howzit” and dont get up when you greet them. Its not just the book knowledge going to the dogs, but the general upbringing and lack of social skills and manners are really a concern. And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I’m referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.
I suspect it’s due to all this coddling that’s taken place due to OBE. These kids all think they’re frikin’ geniuses because they’ve all been told they’re special and can do no wrong for their entire schooling career. It sickens me.
I’ve experienced this personally, we take in leaners straight from matric every year, and I insist on a hand written essay before I even bother to meet them for an interview. The spelling is horrific in most cases, and many of them tend to write with a mixture of script and caps and of-course many of them write in abbreviations. Its scary. It doesnt end there though, I’ve had kids texting their buddies during the interview, kids that flop onto their backends and greet you with a “howzit” and dont get up when you greet them. Its not just the book knowledge going to the dogs, but the general upbringing and lack of social skills and manners are really a concern. And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I’m referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.
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I’ve posted this quote on this forum before, but here it is again.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates
we take in leaners straight from matric every year
Indeed leaners they’ve become! ;D
oh-gods… :-[
Looks like I overestimated Model C schools. I have noticed that kids from the rural areas, where there are often still traditional family and tribal structures, often have way better manners and work ethic.
Well, take your revenge on all those unmannered slackers by simply not appointing them. 
And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I'm referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.
I would agree. I teach a lot of refugee children from DRC, Angola and Rwanda and they are the sweetest, most polite and hard-working learners you could ever wish to teach. Plus some of them speak more than 5 languages aged just 15. Some of their life stories are heart-wrenching but they turn up at school ready to learn no matter what is going on at home, while many others from more privileged backgrounds act like they are doing me a favour just by showing up!
i have no idea how people can be in denial about dino’s, evolution, and the fact that the earth is kak old. it boggles my mind.
??? ??? ??? ??? ???
No man! the dino’s were placed there to confuse us hominids…this seriously is an argument I had to listen to. (wtf!!)
The notion that fossils were put there by God to test our faith, or by the devil to lead us astray, is not all that uncommon among funides, as is the idea that they are all fakes. Yup, every last one of them.