Haiti Earthquake

Other Flame Wars
21

Buy all you religious people actually didn’t fall for it eh?

Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the marvels contained in them, and in the alternation of night and day, coming and going, increasing and diminishing, there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.
People of intellect need more than such to be so easily convinced. You mean night and day convinces you? Surely not!
We should also remember what happened with Stephen Hawking when making statements like "God does not exist."
Yeah, that sick fuck Allah smited him didn't he? ::)
22

Didn’t unicorns use the same trick?

This seems like a Pascal’s Wager type threat? I would hazard a guess and say that Stephen Hawking, as a scientist, would absolutely change his mind if credible evidence was presented.

This would help. At this point, I do not believe the unicorns exist for the same reason I don’t believe that any of the gods exists - lack of evidence.

23

Somehow I doubt that nazzeem will grace us with any answers to the several questions that were posed. I think the best that we can expect is more Qur’an passages, so allow me to kick off the proceedings in an appropriate fashion. Here are a few instructive ones from that “loving” and “holy” book that’s all about tolerance, particularly towards infidels:

It should not come as a surprise that their flavour isn’t very far removed from the spittle-flecked rabidity of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. After all, they do come from much the same source.

'Luthon64

24

Yes Gods punishment is severe.

I did not comment on the Haiti thing in order to start a different discussion. Also I am not a learned scholar who needs to prove things which has been proven. But in any event as Mefiante was predicting here are more passages relevant to the fact on which scientists agree that the books sent down could not have been written by man.

[5:66] If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

[2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2:7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Accurate Embryology
[23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud.
[23:13] Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository.
[23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.
[23:15] Then, later on, you die.
[23:16] Then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will be resurrected.

a Scientific fact that was only discovered in the 20s century. American astronomer named Edward Hubble made one of the greatest discoveries in the history of astronomy in the 19s. The discovery was that the universe constantly expands. This was later confirmed by Einstein.

The Big Bang Theory Confirmed
[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
[21:31] And we placed on earth stabilizers, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.
[21:32] And we rendered the sky a guarded ceiling. Yet, they are totally oblivious to all the portents therein.
[21:33] And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.
[21:34] We never decreed immortality for anyone before you; should you die, are they immortal?
[21:35] Every soul will taste death, after we put you to the test through adversity and prosperity, then to us you ultimately return.

25

Oh my wouldn’t I like to see a copy of the Kuran before one of these guys translated it…… :wink:

English (In chronological order of publication) 1. Alexander Ross, 1649, The Alcoran of Mahomet: Translated out of Arabique into French by the Sieur Du Ryer; 2. George Sale, 1734, KORAN, Commonly called The Alcoran of Mohammed, Translated into English immediately from the Original Arabic; with Explanatory Notes, taken from the most approved Commentators. To which is prefixed a Preliminary Discourse; 3. John Meadows Rodwell, 1861, The Koran (ISBN 0-8041-1125-1) 4. E.H. Palmer, 1880, The Qur'an: The Sacred Books of the East Part Nine (ISBN 1-4179-3010-1) 5. Mohammad Abdul Hakim Khan, 1905, The Holy Qur'an, Patiala[5] 6. Hairat Dehlawi,1912, The Koran Prepared, Delhi 7. Mirza Abul Fazl, 1911, The Qur'an, Arabic Text and English Translation Arranged Chronologically with an Abstract, Allahabad; 8. Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1917 The Holy Qur'an: Text[6] (ISBN 0-913321-11-7) 9. Al-Hajj Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, 1920, Translation of the Holy Qur'an, Singapore; 10. Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930, The Meaning of the Glorious Qu'ran (ISBN 1-879402-51-3) 11. Abdullah Yusuf Ali, 1934, The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an, Lahore, (ISBN 0-915957-76-0) 12. Richard Bell, 1937-39, The Qur'an. Translated, with a critical re-arrangement of the Surahs 13. Abdul Majid Daryabadi, 1941 The Holy Qur'an, English Translation, Lahore; 14. Arthur John Arberry, 1955, The Koran Interpreted: A Translation (ISBN 0-684-82507-4) 15. N. J. Dawood, 1956, "The Koran", (ISBN 0-14-044558-7) 16. Muhammad Asad, 1980, The Message of The Qur'an (ISBN 1-904510-00-0) 17. M. H. Shakir, 1981 The Quran, Arabic and English (ISBN 0-940368-16-1) (Controversial, see English translation controversy) 18. T. B. Irving, 1985, The Qur'an: First American Version (ISBN 0-911119-33-7) 19. Zafar Ishaq Ansari, 1988 Towards Understanding the Qur'an, translated from Abul Ala Maududi's Urdu translation Tafhim al Qur'an 20. Dr. Rashad Khalifa, (died in January 31st,1990), Quran: The Final Testament, Universal Unity, (ISBN 0-9623622-2-0) 21. Dr. T. B. Irving, 1991 Noble Qur'an: Arabic Text & English Translation (ISBN 0-915597-51-9) 22. AbdalHaqq and Aisha Bewley, 1999, rev. ed. 2005 The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of its Meaning in English, Bookwork, (ISBN 0-9538639-3-X) 23. Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. M. Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, 1999, The Noble Quran (ISBN 1-59144-000-9) 24. Dr. Zohurul Hoque, 2000 Translation and Commentary on The Holy Quran, Holy Qur-An Pub. Project, (ISBN 0-9678304-0-0) 25. Dr. S.M. Afzal-ur-Rahman 2001, The Holy Quran 26. Ahmed Ali, 2001 Al-Qur'an, a Contemporary Translation (ISBN 0691074992)(ISBN 978-0691074993) 27. Muhammad Taqiuddin Sarwar, 2001, The Holy Qur'an, Islamic Seminary Inc., (ISBN 0-941724-00-X) 28. Shabbir Ahmed, 2003 The Qur'an As It Explains Itself, Galaxy; 29. ProgressiveMuslims.Org, 2003, The Message: God's Revelation to Humanity, iUniverse, Inc, (ISBN 0595290353)(ISBN 978-0595290352) 30. Ali Quli Qara'i, 2005, The Qur’an With a Phrase-by-Phrase English Translation, ICAS Press (ISBN 1-904063-20-9) 31. M.A.S Abdel Haleem, 2004, The Qur'an (Oxford World Classics) (ISBN 0-19-283193-3) 32. Thomas Cleary, 2004, The Qur'an: A New Translation (ISBN 1-929694-44-X) 33. Ali Ünal, 2006 The Qur'an with Annotated Interpretation in Modern English (ISBN 978-1-59784-000-1) 34. Alan Jones, 2007, The Qur'an Translated into English, Oxford, Gibb Memorial Trust (ISBN 978-0-906094-63-1) 35. Dr. Edip Yuksel, Layth al-Shaiban, Dr. Martha Schulte-Nafeh, 2007 Quran: a Reformist Translation (Non-sexist, non-sectarian translation) BrainbowPress (ISBN 0-979-67150-7) 36. Laleh Bakhtiar, 2007 The Sublime Quran ("The first English translation of the Qur'an by an American woman")[7] 37. Tahere Saffarzadeh, translated Qur'an in Persian and English (Bilingual) in 2001. 38 Irfan-ul-Quran,2008 translated in English by Shaykh ul Islam Dr.(Prof.) Muhammad Tahir-Ul-Qadri

Adapt the Kuran to suit times, after all, Hubble and Einstein confirmed a theory!
What are a few changes between friends? ::slight_smile:

26
Accurate Embryology [23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud. [23:13] Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository. [23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.

I don’t see that this knowledge is so profound that it should necessarily originate from a supreme being. Any halfwit individual can deduce progressive growth of a fetus by simply considering the external morphology of a pregnant tummy over time.

[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things.

Now this passage is far more interesting. At least it hints at a modern theory which would have been unobservable by mere mortals at the time of writing. Just a pity that it doesn’t go into more detail about the exact nature of the singularity. Now that would have been really impressive. “Solid mass” sounds a bit iffy. I’m not sure that there was mass around before the explosion. Still, pretty cool concept for those days. It reminds me a bit of the old Greek ideas around the indivisible atom.

Mintaka

27

So, we’re back at atheism 101 I guess. OK.

If the universe is too spectacular and wonderful to have just popped into existence, but could only exist because god created it… How did god/allah get created? Is god not too spectacular and wonderful to just have popped into existence with no cause whatsoever? Does this mean the universe itself is more wonderful than god?

The bible (not sure about your particular story/holy book) says that in the beginning god just was, and he was looking over the “waters”. What waters? The hydrogen of the universe? Then was the universe created before, or at the same time as god? or are we talking about extra-universal water? In that case god didn’t create water. Making him NOT the creator of everything. But then, who did create the water and god?

This we call the problem of infinite regression. If believers claim that the universe is too wonderous to exist without god. Then by implication god is even MORE unlikely to just exist without having his own creator, because believers can easily point out that god is even more complex and wonderful than the universe itself. But it gets worse. Because whoever created god, is even MORE complex and wonderful, and must then also have a creator, and so on and so forth. At the end you have to end up with something vastly more powerful than god, the uni/multi-verse, and all the other gods below him… without a cause for this crazy-powerful entity. At SOME point, the religious person has to acknowledge that something spectacular, at some stage or another, was created, out of pure accident… out of pure nothing. And yet they scoff at our view that the universe can exist without having a “cause”, when in their eyes, god, a more potent entity than the universe itself, exists without a cause.

28

You have not answered these two questions, Nazzeem.

We are still waiting for you to clarify this, Nazzeem.

You have not offered us the requested explanation, Nazzeem.

You have not answered this question, Nazzeem.

You have failed to substantiate one single claim that you have made. Quotes from the Koran or Goldy Locks prove nothing.

29

Why must a supposedly loving god’s punishment for the most beloved of his creations be severe, especially when he made them what they are?

And exactly what things does your religion say that you think have been proven? How exactly do you know that they have been proven if you’re not a learned scholar?

Which scientists are those? Names please, and references where they explicitly say that the Qur’an “could not have been written by man.” And note that theologians do not qualify as “scientists.”

Those passages are only “accurate” about embryology to the extent that the Yellow Pages is accurate about the principles of cartography.

No, that chronology is not correct. Nor was that astronomer’s first name Edward; he was Edwin. Religious people really do not do themselves any favours at all by not first checking their facts before discharging distortions and nonsense. All of this stuff happened in the 20th century. In 1915, Einstein published his Theory of General Relativity, a geometrical account of gravity and accelerated motion. With it came a set of general field equations that admitted a variety of solutions, depending on the particular problem that was considered. Some of these solutions indicated an expanding universe, and Einstein introduced his “cosmological constant” (a kind of antigravity, which he later called “the greatest blunder of my life”) in order that one of his solutions should describe a static universe. It was only later, towards the end of the 1920s, that the work of Hubble showed that our universe was in fact an expanding one. You can check these, the real facts, in any decent library or with any of several online resources.

Those passages are only “confirmation” for the Big Bang to the extent that Winnie-the-Pooh is confirmation for the theory that some higher mammals and a marsupial can communicate with one another.

'Luthon64

30

Hey Nazzie, that’s one sick puppy of a god you believe in. What d’ya think of Egypt’s attempt to do away with the veil for women? Did Allah do Haiti 'cos the women showed their faces, you reckon?

31

There is only 1 version of the Quran. It is still the same as it came some 1400 years ago. It is impossible to make changes in it. All authorised translations have the same basic meaning.

I do not have the answers you are looking for, I am not interested in arguing with you and I have no need to prove anything to you. Peace be upon you.

But it is said

“[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2:7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil;”

32

Well, if god did the “seals” and “veils” bit, it’s his problem then. Before you fork off into the sunset, for the sake of your eternal soul, may I remind you of this from the Book of Rwenzori:

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Rwenzori and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, and eternally have dogpu stuck to their shoes.

( Thanks Mefiante for the source text. )

33

OK, I have to ask the obvious question: what are you doing here, then? That’s what this forum is for. If you want abuse it’s the third door on the left. Please turn out the lights on your way out.

34

No, you are only interested in preaching to us and don’t quite know what to do with the actual responses you are getting from the intelligent people here. None as blind as they who will not see.

Peace be upon you.
And a Pat Condell peace to you too.
35
I do not have the answers you are looking for

That’s our point really. You believe what you believe because you’ve been told to. You don’t seem to have any reason to believe it, hence your scarcity of answers. What I (and I think others) are getting at is, you really haven’t thought this through have you? If you had looked for the answers, you could provide them, even if your answers were biblical, at least I could respect you for having solid reasons for your faith. But your personal belief is based on nothing, it would seem. That is why you can only quote us passages, and give no reasoning of why you believe in those passages. Because you have none.

You claim we are “closed” to religion. We made our minds up long ago that we simply won’t believe any of this, and are forever doomed because we were “destined” not to believe. I beg to differ. I (and others here) was once a devout believer in god. Don’t think your feelings toward the subject are stronger than mine was, that is folly. The crux is, I had questions, I went looking for the answers. The answers scared me, the reasoning confounded me, I lived in fear of being cast into hell for starting to realise that the “holy texts” are completely unfounded. But then I was released from fear: fear of the devil, fear of hell, and fear of god. As I realised this is all just stories. There are no answers because there is no god.

Sorry if that hurts you. It hurt me too. Religion hurts us. All you’ve told us is why to be FEARFUL of god, confirming what I discovered long ago: Religion relies on fear to control us.

36

Naughty, naughty man! ;D

Good post, BoogieMonster. It always intrigues me that, until it is actually pointed out, religious believers rarely if ever consider the possibility that the unbeliever usually comes from a position of prior belief, and that critical scrutiny of those beliefs has prompted their rejection. So much, then, for “Surely those who disbelieve … will not believe.” When faced with the fact of rejected prior belief, playing of the “Never a True Believer™© to begin with” card is sure to follow, and hence the “god hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil” sentiment to justify inciting harm and punishment. Religion is nothing if not self-righteously psychotic.

By way of comparison and in an endeavour to keep things on an even keel, here’s a small selection of relevant pearls of wisdom issued by none other than the ever-charming Martin Luther:

“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but – more frequently than not – struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

“Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and whilst they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their heads in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.”

“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom.”

'Luthon64

37

And yet… there is the argument from reason and the belief that our reality exists because of reason. I think you are delusional and lying to yourself old muffy if you think reason is on your side (or any other materialst for that matter) >:D.

38

Please explain the steps in getting from reason to reality. There is also the belief that our reality exists because of fishcakes, which seems about as sensible as what you say; but please enlighten me.

39

Do you struggle with language?

What will your objection be to Tommy’s belief that our reality exists because of reason?
No evidence?
It is an irrational belief?

Enlighten us. Look, I know you guys tend to believe “sh|t happens” and that is about as philosophical as you can be… but there is more to life than that you know.

40

Teleological, is your reality the same than Nazzeem’s?