Kalam cosmological argument

Sheesh Mefiante - your posts are hectic to read. Brilliant, as always, but I had to read the last one 3 times and I still don’t follow everything you’re saying. What I do know is that the laws of Thermodynamics (all 4 of them from 0 to 3) only apply to a closed system. If Cretinists pull the Second Law out of their hats, we nail them with First Law. I also know that these Laws cannot be applied to the Universe (or Multi-verse) because there is no way we can say they are closed systems.

But now if Heisenberg measured short-lived bursts of energy in “empty” space at a sub-atomic level, could this not mean that something like that started the entire universe off? Could that have happened without any matter being present at all? And start a sequence of events like: here’s some energy but no mass SO … here’s some mass to equal the energy and presto, the first atom (because energy and mass are related, right? Inseparable?). Could this not at least be mathematically viable? It could also be another explanation for Kalam/Craig’s causeless effect.

I dunno. This stuff is actually out of my league, but it’s fun to speculate (even in ignorance, which is why we have Mef to give us all the relevant datum).

Sorry Steve, I really don’t mean to be obscure – just the opposite, actually. The bottom line is that, as with most things, it’s not as clear-cut and unequivocal as it is often made out to be. There are subtleties and nuances at play that should not be ignored. Moreover, experience has taught me that it is most productive (though not easiest on the participants) to jump in at the deeper end and then clear up the misunderstandings as and when they are noted.

At the simplest level of overview, one should be aware that the “laws” of physics are abstract summaries of things that have either consistently been observed in a particular relation to one another, or for which there exists a more detailed causal account in terms of other such relations. That is, the “laws” of physics are grounded in idealised mathematical descriptions of empirical reality or derivations of a combination of such descriptions. They are, in short, models of reality, not reality itself. A satirist (Jonathan Swift? Lewis Carroll? Douglas Adams? I don’t remember who) has made the point by analogy with a map on a 1:1 scale. Such a map would be 100% accurate and 100% reliable but hardly very useful. In a similar way, the “laws” that we do have don’t tell the whole story (just as a map on a 1:10,000 scale doesn’t), and there are limits to their applicability that are often detrimentally ignored.

We must be extremely wary of committing fallacies of composition (“what is true of the parts is true of the whole”), especially when it comes to plainly materialist studies. No-one of this forum embodies such fallacy more prominently than you-know-who.

The mathematical abstraction often doesn’t exactly help either when it comes to framing things in everyday language. While empirical observations define the mathematical terms and initial relations, it is often the case that combinations and recombinations of such models force a broadening of the meaning of terms and relations to the point where it is no longer clear just how they should be interpreted. The laws of thermodynamics are “reducible” to statistical mechanics, which treatment relies on essentially simpler premisses, but is considerably more abstract. However, it is through this approach alone that it has become clear that near-equilibrium is instrumental to the validity of thermodynamic laws. In practical terms, this means that if our customary world was seriously off thermodynamic equilibrium, we’d have different quantitative formulations of our thermodynamic laws (assuming our kind of life could even exist in such a skewed environment).

I cannot provide definitive answers to the questions you pose but I can point out weaknesses in purported answers. The curse – and joy! – of scepticism is knowing the limits of the answers.

And the questions, too, come to think of it.

'Luthon64

Thanks for that detailed and enlightening post Mef. The map analogy gave me a MUCH better understanding of where all these Laws fit into our lives. I always thought these things were “cast in concrete”. Maybe it’s the use of the term “Laws of …” that gets most people thinking they are absolute, unchangeable and irrefutable. Maybe we should call them the “Guides of …”, or the “Models of …” might be better.

“What is true of the parts is true of the whole” … isn’t Kalam using the same fallacy? And isn’t “cause and effect” also one of those mathematical “models”? Can Heisenberg not have shown us the possibility of a “causeless effect”? (The key words are “the possibility of”) What annoys me (now more than ever since reading your previous post) is that Dr Craig says he has “proved” the existence of God - irrefutably. He also refuses to debate anyone who doesn’t have a PhD. The arrogance is astounding. And his PhD is in theology - not cosmology.

I wish you could be there with us Mef and nail him to his own cross.

No-one of this forum embodies such fallacy more prominently than you-know-who.
Voldamort is a member of this forum? Hehe. Actually when you and Tele start going at each others throats, I get out of the way. You guys talk on a different level to the rest of us mortals.

1.If God is not matter, then he must be a thought.
2.If he’s a thought, he must be our thoughts
2 If he’s matter, he had a beginning

ag it doesn’t matter!

  1. If he’s thought, he doesn’t matter (and his beginning was in our minds)

But that’s a different matter.

Sorry Mefi, I don’t find the cosmological argument convincing enough to plough through all the linked-to material. Must confess I lost interest after the first few pages. Why do philosophers use so many words to say so little? Is there perhaps a simple answer to my question? I don’t really see how something that doesn’t already exist in some state or form can suddenly be caused to exist out of nothing. Even with Hawking radiation the energy is gradually being drained from the black hole.

Yes, but in an abstract sense: everything that happens appears to be the result of some prior events that look like they were necessary for the observed thing to have come to be – what we normally refer to as “cause and effect.” But the essence of your observation remains valid, namely that we cannot legitimately extrapolate our (limited) experiences within the strict confines of the universe to conditions beyond it. There is no epistemologically sound defence for the assumption that conditions inside our universe are even remotely the same as those outside it because we can’t, almost by definition, escape the universe, even in thought. So you can’t then say that our notions of “cause” transcend the universe and apply to it as a whole when judged from some imagined external and all-encompassing bird’s-eye vantage point. To do so is to delude yourself into thinking (or to pretend) that you have a privileged supra-natural perspective. The idea of “cause,” however loosely we might like to understand the term, may be entirely inappropriate for the production of universes because we have no way of knowing that our understanding of “cause” is either sufficient or correct in such a larger context.

Again, this is a much deeper question than it seems at first. On the one hand, everyone has an intuitive grasp of “cause and effect” – flick the switch and, depending which way you flick it, the light turns either on or off. On the other hand, when we start digging deeper, we discover that causation comes with a slew of philosophical difficulties that funnel down into the induction problem: “whenever X happens, Y happens next; therefore X causes Y.” Until we encounter an exception, we will insist on the “therefore…” Here, I am not speaking about confusing correlation and causation. I am speaking about causation as we normally understand it: the cue ball, struck just right, nudges the blue into centre pocket, earning you five points. But think about the bottomless regress of levels of explanation – elastic collision response, material properties and composition, conservation laws, atomic interactions, electromagnetic attractions and repulsions, atomic structures, quantum states, quarks and gluons, Feynman paths, etc., etc., etc. – that would go into a comprehensive account of sinking the blue ball. Think about how it is purely empirical that one level of explanation relates to – is causally connected to – the next one up or down. Think about the non-smooth transition of going up or down a level and you will see that causation is a very, very odd thing indeed.

Yes, but a prior causeless effect was known: radioactive decay. There is no known way to cause a given atom to spit out radiation (alpha, beta or gamma). There is no known way to speed up or slow down or in any sense to influence radioactive decay. Atoms and particles decay as and when they “feel like it” and they simply won’t be pressured to do it sooner or later. That is not to say that we can’t describe the overall behaviour of a large collection of them. Far from it, we can do so quite reliably, and the more atoms or particles we have, the more accurate our models become – an object lesson in the hazards of committing fallacies of composition – but we cannot make any meaningful statements about when any specific individual constituent will “decide” to decay. Similarly, Heisenberg uncertainty places statistical limits on the detail that can be known about reality. These limits are not about accuracy of measurement. They are, as far as we can presently tell, reflective of an intrinsic “fuzziness” in nature. They allow for uncaused and acausal events, and the effects I named in an earlier post.

If he says so outright, he’s considerably more forceful than your usual theologian. But no, he hasn’t proved any such thing. As outlined by others and myself, there are too many obvious objections to this recycled argument. The most obtrusive stumbling block is that the conclusion seriously exceeds the warrant of the premisses. In a nutshell, the argument tries to smuggle in “god” as a stopgap for our (present) ignorance.

Everyone’s entitled to a character defect or two, I suppose.

'Luthon64

Because, in large part, philosophy derives from theology, traditionally the “most elevated” of intellectual pursuits. Theology has always deftly managed to substitute wordiness for coherence. Nevertheless, there is at least some merit in careful philosophical exposition. Usefully constraining a knotty problem is perhaps in some important sense more useful even than solving it. The preponderance of philosophical discourse concerns the delineation of problems rather than their solution. The trouble is not philosophy itself; it’s that philosophers often can’t agree as to what properly belongs to a given problem and what doesn’t, and so they end up losing sight of the essentials and getting bogged down by pedantry. Science came about because some notable philosophers rebelled against the trend and called for tangible evidence instead.

The purpose of my SEP links was to underscore that “cause” and “causation” can have several distinct meanings (or shades thereof) that are related but still separable. If we view “cause” as analogous to a finger that pulls a gun’s trigger then it is clearly a different beast to viewing “cause” as the provenance of the firearm, the ammunition and the owner of the finger that pulled the trigger, plus the brain that made it happen. That is, we need to be very clear about what we are after when we start talking about “cause(s) of something to exist.” Do we, for example, want to know how it came about from pre-existent things and conditions of a certain type, or do we want a complete and self-contained account of its whole ontology? These different focusses can only lead us into trouble and misunderstanding if we don’t first specify exactly the sense in which “cause” is to be understood.

'Luthon64

Mefiante, thank you sooo much for your posts on this thread. And for so thoroughly answering my questions. I know we don’t get personal in these forums but I must assume that a woman who writes the way you do MUST have several PhD’s, and a Professorship somewhere in some hectic field like nuclear physics. Thank you for explaining all this so well.

In a nutshell, the argument tries to smuggle in “god” as a stopgap for our (present) ignorance.

Dan Barker comes to the same conclusion in his book Godless in his chapter on Kalam. Dr Craig and his cronies are basically “begging the question” - it the same “ignorance is proof of the Divine” fallacy we’ve heard so many times from the woo-woos.

For those of you wishing to attend the two events at the University of Pretoria on the 11th and 12th of May (next week), here is the entire letter I received from Prof Louise Mabille who is co-ordinating the events with Dr Craig:

Dear Steve
Great to hear from you! First and foremost: I ordered your book for the library, and hope that once this is over, we can have another interesting conversation, over some hot chocs (or another beverage of your choice!) I really wish to ask you a number of questions about your book.
Colloquium details: 11 May in the Human Sciences Building – the white tower building visible from Lynnwood Road. If you enter the University from the Lynnwood Road, you cannot miss it, and it is on level 4, room 1 at 17:30. We have to get the lectern and mike ready, and tick off all the students on a class list, so we will start closer to 18:00. (It is in the same building as my office, only one floor up from the ground floor, which is level 3).
The debate: It may interest your friends to know that the New Reformers hold a position which is pretty close to atheism – most of them are in fact atheists, who hold that the historical Jesus (if he in fact existed) was not divine. That is basically the topic of the debate. Proff Spangenberg and Wolmarans will basically argue that Christ was in fact just a non-divine Jewish mystic who did not rise from the grave; and Craig/Licona will argue for the traditional interpretation.
12 May at 19:00 in the Musaion theatre on the UP campus (just next to the Aula). R20 at the door.
One more thing. Be prepared for criticism of Professor Dawkins. His position is philosophically very problematic. But by the way, I think Dan Barker is right! Could not find a flaw, but I can’t speak for anyone else. I am ultimately committed to only one thing, and that is thinking for myself. This means that I have to take religious arguments seriously as well. One day, I want to be able to say that I penetrated the mysteries of existence. So even if you hear something that you do not like, please remember that I have really thought about everything, and that even if we should differ, I have immense respect for you. I hope to attend one of your gigs too. I am sure it will be interesting, even if I am musically speaking illiterate.
Now just bring yourself and that MENSA IQ of yours! And thanks for the publicity!
Yours
louise

I unfortunately cannot attend the debate (as much as I would LOVE to) because I have an audition gig in Midrand on that night, but I will be at the Tuesday colloquium.
Steve

Very interesting muffles. Forgive my ignorance please, but how did they manage to slow down and speed up decay…
Here
Here
Here
Here
Here
Here

And this?

I don’t know hey, I thought that they have found at least one way to influence radioactive decay. What am I missing muffles, or was it the way you put it that makes it confusing?
Throw us a bone old muffles, help out the ignorant.

No. You wear it so well. If you’re so inconsolably desperate for a conversation with me, why not simply ask nicely?

They didn’t. Ideally, one would first read and understand one’s own linked-to material to avoid misrepresenting it. The “decay” that they speak of whose rate is affected by quantum Zeno is that of coherent quantum states, not the radioactive kind.

You’re mistaken.

I’d rather not say, if you don’t mind.

I suppose that would depend on the particular reader’s willingness to engage with what I wrote using the appropriate terms of reference, for example that I spoke, perhaps not definitely enough, about individual decay events.

Okay, here’s two of them thrown with due emphasis:

The suggestion that the anti-Zeno effect can increase radioactive decay rates (in a decoherent collection of radioactive matter) still awaits experimental verification.

'Luthon64

What about the complete bone?
[url=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/06/000602074805.htm]However, a sequence of observations so close in time would cause the appearance of new particles, changing the system completely and destroying it, and thus the question of stopping the decay would become meaningless. On the other hand, if the time interval between observations is longer than the decay’s memory time, the rate of decay and radiation is actually increased. Not only does Zeno’s paradox not take effect in such a case but there is actually an opposite effect: the “anti-Zeno effect”.

Prof. Kurizki: "In other words, if we make the analogy between an object undergoing changes in time, for example a decaying nucleus or an excited atom, and Zeno’s moving arrow, the arrow will increase its speed as the rate of the ‘glimpses’ increases. The surprising conclusion of this research is that the anti-Zeno effect (i.e., the increase of decay through frequent observations) can occur in all processes of decay, while the original Zeno effect, which would slow down and even stop decay, requires conditions that only rarely exist in such processes." [/url]

Found the original article:
Frequent observations accelerate decay: The anti-Zeno effect

Don’t you think you should have said:
There is a possible way to influence radioactive decay and it is testable?

Rebel scientists, I dig it! ;D

Ah, thanks Mefi, I think I see it now. If the argument is to make any kind of sense one shouldn’t read “cause” in the material sense but almost more in the legal sense. Not just a cause is assumed but also a causer. Isn’t that sort of cheating?

I see your mommy forgot to pack your manners again today.

I must say you are becoming quite the closet atheist these days. Claiming to have given up on ID after having been one of its staunchest defenders, proponents, and slimy insinuators. Now you pick up on the quantum Zeno story - you must thank your old mate rwenzori for consistently throwing that one into the pot, wouldn’t you agree hehe. ;D

You have also been one to punt and defend the so-called “arguments for the existence of god”, yet here you are quoting all kinds of fun shit that makes a mockery of the traditional cosmological argument. Stuff coming into and going out of existence; strange effects that one cannot explain by the old simple notions of causality. I should get you to point out ExAtheist’s twaddle to him over at MyBB - save me the boring task of reading his PHIL101 essays on the Pre-Socratics LOL. :stuck_out_tongue:

Amusing that, in your ham-fisted attempts to get back at Mefiante for tying you up in knots, you shoot your own standpoints in the foot. Must be a ham-fisted ham-finger trying to push between the trigger-guard and the trigger that fired the shots. :stuck_out_tongue:

You’re coming on nicely. Not much further to go and you’ll be forsaking the lord your god over your cornflakes. But be warned - you’ll have to stop being so rude - us atheists have standards, mate.

What the…? Someone thinks TellyMecchie’s a critical thinker! :o

I never thought I’d see the day. How’s it feel, Dawg? Must be for not reading posts properly and ignoring stuff.

To those of you still interested in attending the Pretoria University presentation and debate with Dr Craig, here are the details:
11 May (tomorrow): Presentation. 5.30, Human Sciences Bldg, Level 4 (one up from Ground 3), room 1.

12 May (Wednesday): Debate. 7.00 pm, Musaion Theatre, Main Campus UP. R20 entrance.

On the 11th (which is the one I will be attending - can’t make Wed) any of us Skeptics.za folk interested will be having a few dops afterwards with me and my daughter (also a reprobate atheist), and also maybe with Prof Mabille who has a PhD on Nietzsche.

Hope to see you there.

Sounds like a hoot! Problem is I’m in Durb’s Good luck anyway with the debates. Keep us informed!

His response in countering Mefiante’s assertion that radioactive decay cannot be manipulated was somewhat insightful, and a good and thought provoking read at least. Irrespective of who is right, methinks he deserves a gold star for this flash-in-the-pan bout of scepticism.

Mintaka

Interesting, so now if I post seven links of which five are irrelevant to the point and the other two are about the same bit of theoretical research still in need of experimental validation will you gimme a star too? Even if the stuff I post doesn’t weaken my opponent’s arguments? When my opponent basically conceded the point? 'Cos I’m real skeptical about that.

Even more interesting though is how the gold star awards charity doesn’t stretch as far as the opponent’s explanations and analysis of Kalam’s weaknesses, the topic of this thread…