Holy mother! That's got to hurt doubly so if you believe masturbation is evil, talk about some serious frustration! (Or more likely, a LOT of shame)Absolutely! as a sixteen year old I was told about hairy palms, my winky would wither and die etc.....no wonder my ambition is to be caught wanking at 95 yrs old.
A better plan would be to caught in an orgy at 95 years old, but to each his own. 
agree BM much better plan ;D
akshually never been to an orgy…hmmmm
I’m just leaving this here, feel free to ignore.
Ah-ha, I knew it. Bombs away! >:D
What part?
Well, the point that he’s making: showing that there exists a fallacious idea that monogamy is somehow “better” than controlled promiscuity. Perhaps now that we are well into the era of the global village, we can start harvesting morals eclectically from the world’s nations instead of just inheriting the good with the the bad, voetstoots, from our immediate ancestors.
In spite of my “bombs away!” optimism, I suspect most people alive today (including yours truly) will probably never enjoy truly guilt-free random shagging. It seems that Victorian s*x theory instills into us the idea that a friendly pot of recreational carnal indulgence is somehow more meaningful than its badminton, bingo or backgammon equivalent. So again we tie up pleasure with guilt. Mmmm … I wonder where that strategy could have had its origins. 
Rigil
I think these are experiments we can only really start doing once people start abandoning religion en-masse. I’m well aware that these ideas are well within the “renegade” part of society at this time. Baby steps.
I’ve had some (states for the record: NON SEXUAL) experiences of late that illuminate just how ill-prepared our social circles are for these kinds of changes (Which drove home to me how badly we need to abolish this type of thinking, it does real damage every day). This stuff, even in the atheistic, is ingrained very deeply. Maybe due to lack of press: the questioning of systems of government or religious servitude is much more front-and-centre than issues of morality post-religion.
The first step in skepticism is realising what you’re not being skeptical about in the first place.
In case you’re not aware, there’s also “Sex at Dusk” - a response to Ryan’s “Sex at Dawn”, arguing that he’s got it all wrong. I haven’t read the response yet, but reviews seem quite persuaded by Dusk rather than Dawn.
I was not aware, and it raises a bit of a conundrum surrounding personal bias. Am I being biased? Are people looking for a counter-argument to Ryan being biased? I can imagine a lot of people out there wouldn’t take kindly to the message.
???
Thinking I should get both books and have a good read.
I quite like what he said about sex being firstly a bonding exercise and procreation being only secondary to that. From the little I know about the (swinging) lifestyle, this concept of controlled promiscuity is really at the center of the whole relationship, these swinging couples have actually a lot of rules they agree to, and most of it is based on their own insecurity it seems. Funny many of these swinging clubs are only aimed at couples - people already in a relationship, you can have a look a places like http://www.lizaslounge.com/.
As a bisexual being in a monogamous relationship isn’t much harder than if you were totally gay/straight, you are always going to be attracted to other people and have your own desires, fantasies and urges, if you don’t get what you’re looking for from you partner you’re bound to be tempted at some stage. I just don’t think monogamy is for everyone though and it’s highly overrated - can’t imagine any long term relationship like that to stay spicy and interesting for both - which is why there’s a whole industry that revolves around helping couples spice things up…
Maybe I’ll think differently on this when I eventually find the “right” person, as for now, I can’t see a truly long-term monogamous relationship is helping anyone very much…
I find the “only men” part of that conclusion a bit dubious an assumption, but it does not affect the result. Not a very feminist-friendly thought, one has to admit.
EDIT: For instance I can imagine that infidelity in women would guard against having a mate that is infertile, or has low fertility, and would so help the female’s genes spread too.
Well, perhaps not so surprising. We already have a precedent: in our own evolution, women of higher intelligence had more offspring. Men then also became more intelligent because they after all inherit half their genes from their mothers. 
From another thread:
This is a thought that has really taken hold in my mind over time. The concept that relationship exclusivity by default implies a period of “lost” time for exploration of opportunities, forming other loving bonds, “living our life”, etc. At the termination of those relationships… for whatever reason … you’ve lost time in a truly real sense. A part of your life that cannot ever be recovered. The more I think about it the more it SUCKS.
I wouldn’t ever want to be the perpetrator of this on another person. To have them dedicate themselves to me only to find 40 years from now it doesn’t work out and they’ve wasted their life being with me. I would much rather they are free to explore… live their life in a real sense free of “bondage”. And if they CHOOSE to be with me, I happily accept their company on my road through life. If our way should part … I want them to feel like I didn’t “waste” their life away making them cling on to something we’d initially both hoped would work, but which didn’t at the end.
The thing is, we don’t have a crystal ball. We don’t know what happens down the road. We have to accept what happens and move on when the time comes whilst trying not to have regrets. However there will be regrets… sadly… and I think it’s wise to try and optimise the situation so that it is minimised.
One should keep in mind that the older generation grew up during apartheid times. Homosexual acts were illegal. Both homosexuality and transgenderism were so taboo they were not really discussed, ever. If you had such inclinations, you were the sickest of sinners and criminals.
And thus, you can see why a teenager here, in the 1970s or thereabouts, would not admit any such thing, even to himself. Hence, lots of deeply repressed men. And presumably some women too, though for some reason, society has never had as much of an issue with female homosexuality, perhaps because the men who hate gays also find lesbians hot.
@ Brian - My gripe with my “lost years” is that we often discussed these things even back when we just met, I have both trans and gay friends and if he had issues with them it would have been a dealbreaker for me, if he told me then, we’d be friends today and he’d have heaps of support… instead he opted to lie.
Boogie - most people are in a consenting relationship and loves their partners, I have a great relationship with my first ex, he was the first person I called with my tale of woe. The fact that he went philandering in the woods and we subsequently divorced did not in any way made me feel like I wasted my time with him. It was very clear at that point that the relationship died and we were both mature and intelligent enough to do it in a civil way. It was tough, I recall it well enough but we came out of it with a better relationship than before. I suspect because neither of us has much time for games and lies.
In summary my thoughts:
A healthy life and relationship requires the following in my mind:
Maturity
Emotional Intelligence
No games
No lies
Sounds good?
He was most likely lying to himself too. My landlady had the same problem: after ten years of marriage, her husband decloseted. It’s apparently very common here in South Africa. I suspect also in America. And Iran, and wherever they try to suppress people’s natural inclinations.
Wait… are you trying to subtly imply I’m not? I don’t think you are. But you might be…
I have a great relationship with my first ex, he was the first person I called with my tale of woe. The fact that he went philandering in the woods and we subsequently divorced did not in any way made me feel like I wasted my time with him.
Consider an alternative reality: He tells you he wants to go philandering in the woods. You don’t feel comfortable with it at first, but at least he’s being honest and addressing the problem up front with you instead of going behind your back… Then you realise that maybe you could deal with that afterall and give him the all clear within certain stipulations and boundaries… You’re still together today.
It was very clear at that point that the relationship died and we were both mature and intelligent enough to do it in a civil way. It was tough, I recall it well enough but we came out of it with a better relationship than before. I suspect because neither of us has much time for games and lies.
Right. This is a cool way to do it. Agreed. However, I’ve also seen divorces where kids become pawns in a game of courtroom drama that stretches out for years.
A healthy life and relationship requires the following in my mind:Maturity
Emotional Intelligence
No games
No lies
I actually couldn’t agree more.
The thing is, the relationship was dead about three years at that point, to stress how dead it was - I knew he was working, as money was coming in, but I had no idea where nor any interest to know - pretty grim. We would have divorces either way.
I hear you though, Im sure there are relationships that can work as you describe but maturity would be crucial, even then I doubt it could aurvive long term, in my experience, one partner always loves a little bit more or deeply and would not able to bear it.
And no Boogie, Im not implying you dont, we’ve been online conversationalists for many years now and I feel you are a rock solid guy, youve always been a favourite! ;D