- Ok, if you say so…
- More trash-talk and baiting
Phrony, phrony, phrony. An objective observer would note that you actually got what you asked for. Not being an objective observer, I’ll accept you ignoring my opinion.
The problem isn’t so much with feedback you get, but with your “model” as presented. That you refuse to accept that (from multiple sources now) is no skin off my back and reflects once more squarely on you.
Do carry on and best of luck. You remain, as always, entertaining.
ps One question if you will. Why so many nicks over so many sites?? If you choose not to answer I’ll understand.
pps Thank you rwenzori for directing me to this site, I am liking it.
Go stalk someone else please. Nemesis? What the… Get a life and figure out what a microtubule and a pi-bond is while you are at it so that it does not look like you are just trolling…
don’t flatter yourself like that ;D
Nemesis? What the...Said tongue in cheek of course but humor has never been a strong point with you... the fact that this has to be explained to you is telling.
Get a life and figure out what a microtubule and a pi-bond is while you are at it so that it does not look like you are just trolling..An Internet troll is someone who says things for the simple sake of getting a response, I say things because I mean them. You should know this by now.
Please stick to the topic and read the rules here: http://forum.skeptic.za.org/forum-related/forum-rules/
The last few posts are really pointless and will probably be moved to somewhere more appropriate…
Interesting article:
Information processing mechanisms in microtubules at physiological temperature: Model predictions for experimental tests.
[b]Both direct and indirect experimental evidence has shown signaling, communication and conductivity in microtubules (MTs).[/b] Theoretical models have predicted that MTs can be potentially used for both classical and quantum information processing although controversies arose in regard to physiological temperature effects on these capabilities. In this paper, MTs have been studied using well-established principles of classical statistical physics as applied to information processing, information storage and signal propagation. To investigate the existence of information processing in MTs we used cellular automata (CA) models with neighbor rules based on the electrostatic properties of the molecular structure of tubulin, and both synchronous and asynchronous updating methods. [b]We obtained a phase diagram of possible dynamic behaviors in MTs that depend on the values of characteristic physical parameters that can be experimentally verified.[/b]From the introduction:
In order to model a biological system realistically the method of updating should match the real-world system as much as possible. When a “global clock” is present, all CA cells should be updated synchronously. In the absence of a clock, cells should be updated in an asynchronous manner. Currently there is no direct experimental evidence suggesting the presence of a “global clock” affecting the MT system making it appropriate to use an asynchronous method of updating.With this said, there are plausible “global clock” mechanisms that warrant consideration. The notion of coherent excitations supporting computation and information processing inMThas previously been suggested to occur via biological coherence (Hameroff, 1998). Biological coherence, as proposed by Fröhlich, is a high state of order that occurs in a biological system when the thermal energy supplied to the system reaches a certain threshold causing the coupled molecules to vibrate in unison (Fröhlich, 1968a,b). Fröhlich showed that when the energy supply to a system is sufficiently large in comparison with the energy loss, the dipoles tend to oscillate in a coherent manner. With increased energy supply from an external source, such as thermal fluctuations, deformations of the system caused by non-linear effects reduce the energy loss, moving the system into a metastable stationary state, such that the energy of the electric oscillations is larger than that in thermal equilibrium. Provided that the energy supply exceeds a critical value the excess energy of the system is channeled into a single longitudinal oscillation. Thus, the random energy supply is not converted wholly into thermal energy, but is used tomaintain a coherent electric wave in the material. Fröhlich indicated that the channeling of randomly supplied energy into a single oscillation in biological systems is a special case of long-range quantum mechanical phase correlation, or coherence, such as in a Bose–Einstein condensate. The quantum properties exhibited by such systems have been used to explain the synchronization of biological rhythms such as sleep cycles, and heart rhythms. Non-thermal radiation at 8.085MHz has been observed to be emitted from microtubules (Pokorny´ et al., 2001), and while this does not necessarily indicate the formation of a Fröhlich condensate it has been suggested (Pokorny´ et al., 2001; Pokorny´ , 2003, 2004, 1999). Thus, Fröhlich coherence may serve as a viable clocking mechanism for information processing in MT.
From the results:
The stable and oscillating patterns of MT automata observed via the synchronous simulations could possibly function as specific sites of ion or protein binding and transport thus performing some role in the orchestration of biomolecular activities. It is expected that the addition of microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) and other proteins known to normally interact with MTs will affect the overall patterns of behavior by altering the dynamics of electrons at specific protein attachment sites. Aswell, these simulations have shown that information processing at temperatures relevant to the MT environment is feasible so long as a clocking mechanism is present. The notion of information processing and signaling suggested to occur in MTs, at relevant temperatures, thus remains a possibility and is open to further investigation. Additionally, nanotech uses of biomolecules are of interest and the MT is a candidate for use in nanoscale devices.
From the conclusion:
[b]5. Summary and Conclusion [/b] The possibility of quantum processes in relation to information processing in MTs at physiologically relevant temperature has been investigated via a cellular automata computer model of a MT. The model uses a typical MT configuration of 13 protofilaments with its constituent tubulin proteins packed into a seven-member neighborhood in a tilted hexagon configuration known as an A-lattice. Based on previous results it is assumed that results for the A-lattice may also be extended to the B-lattice configuration. Solutions of the Poisson–Boltzmann equation for the crystallographic structure of tubulin revealed that the interior of the protein contains a region of two areas of positive charge separated by a barrier of negative charge. This interior arrangementwas taken to constitute a doublewell potential structure, within which amobile electron maymove, thus determining the electronic state of the tubulin dimer. The alpha-407 tryptophan residue is suggested as a likely donor for this mobile electron. Dynamics of the system are determined by the minimization of the overall energy associated with the electrostatic interactions between electrons in nearest neighbor tubulin dimers, as well as thermal effects based on Boltzmann factors. The model allows transitions for electrons with sufficient energy to overcome the potential barrier in which the new configuration lowers the system’s energy, or if the configuration raises the system’s energy with a finite probability, and allows the electron to tunnel through the potential barrier allowing transitions, at a finite probability, for which the system’s energy is lowered even if the electron does not possess the necessary energy to overcome the potential barrier. To cover plausible ranges the system was investigated at 310K with a potential barrier height between 100 and 150 meV, and a tubulin dielectric constant between 2 and 10. The system was updated in both a synchronous and asynchronous manner to consider both the presence and absence of a “global clock”. Visual observation of the system revealed no capacity for information processing in the absence of a “global clock”, while information processing in the presence of a clocking mechanism is possible for a narrow range of barrier heights and specific values for the tubulin dielectric constant. Thus, it is concluded that, based on a mobile electron in a double-well structure in tubulin, a clocking mechanism is required for physiologically relevant information processing in MT, and is only possible if the tubulin dielectric constant is above 7.8 with the potential barrier height exceeding 116meV.
Testable model?
Here is how it is related to consciousness:
The “conscious pilot”—dendritic synchrony moves through the brain to mediate consciousness
Feel free at any time to explain in simple language what you have cited. That would be for the benefit of the less technically-minded reader. Otherwise one might start to suspect that you’re having people on.
'Luthon64
oh wow, 'Luthon64, if you get him to do that, I will worship you for the rest of the day at least.
Better than I have tried and failed. Will you succeed? That would be totally sweet!
Yes, that would be nice. Evasion’s a much safer bet, though. God’s gravity-induced wave function collapse told me so.
'Luthon64
Well at least you know there is a testable model. I’ll try and slap together the lay man’s version for the benefit of the less technically-minded reader. Goodness knows don’t want them to try and figure it out for themselves ;).
Should we hold out breaths or will we expire if we do?
Only in your imagination do I or anyone else know such a thing. The paper deals with a simulation of an electron quantum tunnelling effect in microtubules at around ambient temperature. It doesn’t even mention consciousness.
Yes, please do, seeing as you’re the expert on this. We are after all here to learn. Personally, I don’t mind if you also show the mathematics of this marvellous transition from quantum effects to consciousness. In fact, it would be great if you did just that. Then, and only then, can we start using phrases like “testable model.”
I’d say not. Oxygen starvation to the brain is likely to turn one into an IDiot or a cretinist.
'Luthon64
Microtubules - information processing - consciousness… Is it possible that consciousness relies on information processing structures :o?
Nope, sorry, I have never claimed to be an expert, I am not. I am trying to understand it like any other person here :). Emphasis on trying…
If this was true, you wouldn’t be getting the flak you are.
Possible, yes, even likely. But a conjecture plus some wishful and deeply ignorant inference on your part doesn’t add up to a fact, a point you have repeatedly shown yourself incapable of apprehending. You keep treating this whole topic as if it was a fait accompli (and in the process torturing several scientific disciplines and certain aspects of its methodology near to death). It’s clear enough at this point that you have no actual respect for science, merely a shabby pretence to it.
Agreed. On both counts. Nonetheless, the absence of a direct claim notwithstanding, try to read your own posts impartially – that is, if you can. They’re positively drenched in implied “I’m the expert” sauce.
Ha ha, good one! If that were true, you’d answer questions and actually consider what others here tell you, instead of deploying that fine collection of dodges and ruses you have put on display again and again.
See? Another thread moved, at least in part, to Flame Wars. One must wonder why.
Anyhoo, what’s your estimated timeframe on the layman’s explanation that was requested here?
'Luthon64
Well at least you know there is a testable model. I'll try and slap together the lay man's version for the benefit of the less technically-minded reader. Goodness knows don't want them to try and figure it out for themselves .
I assume you are referring to me here. You’re right, I’m not technically minded at all and have a bit of a hard time following the discussion, but then I’m not a biologist or expert on Creationism, such as you, so I lack the knowledge to argue with you.
Nope, sorry, I have never claimed to be an expert, I am not.
Please read 'Luthon64’s answer below again, every post screams “I’m so much more intelligent than you are”. You have put yourself across as an expert, and an arrogant one at that as evidenced by your in your answer, quoted right at the top.I’m so sorry that you feel that you have to lower your great intellectual abilities to answer some of the questions in layman’s terms for the benefit of stupid people like me. Another reason that it’s been hard to follow is because I have to wade though pages of information that in the end turn out to be a waste of time.
I am trying to understand it like any other person here .
No you’re not. You’re trying to preach and show everyone here how very clever you are. You seem incapable of answering any question in a straightforward way, perhaps it’s got to do with your need to show us what a genius you are - I bow before your superior intellect.
.......... instead of deploying that fine collection of dodges and ruses you have put on display again and again.
Mechanist would put an Olympic gymnastic team to shame with his mental acrobatics.
Let me add one more thing before I leave to go and wallow in my pool stupidity and lack of technical ability. The difference between Mechanist and David Mabus/Nstra is this, David Mabus is a nutjob, but relatively harmless. Mechanist on the other hand is much more dangerous and insidious, it’s people like him who get elected into influential positions and who then proceed to destroy good science with bad reasoning. It’s people like him who are elected to school boards and who then proceed to poison children’s minds with pseudoscientific trash.
Goodness knows don't want them to try and figure it out for themselves
as we intellectually challenged people like to say,…Up Yours.
There, now you’ve gone and alienated one of the very gentlest of forum members, Mechanist.
Good going. What’s the tally so far?
'Luthon64
There, now you’ve gone and alienated one of the very gentlest of forum members, Mechanist.
LOL! ;D
I apologise if I broke any forum rules with my reply. I had spent ages reading through Mechanists posts and had had enough with the nonsense I read through. I hadn’t participated in the debates and thought I would learn something from them with regard to his posts one DNA,etc - thank gawd for people like Mefiante (aka 'Luthon64) who write in such a concise and clear way that even I - the dumbass - was able to follow what was going on. ;D
@ Mefiante, I like the new nym - it even has a lovely romantic ring to it too. 
Nothing to apologise for, at least by my reckoning.
Thanks for the kind words, and welcome to full membership. ;D
'Luthon64