Hey there
What a relief to find a “truly South African” forum dedicated to skepticism. I’ve been almost obsessed with atheism and skepticism for the past 3-4 years.
It hasn’t been easy to talk to most South Africans about these topics…(especially if you’re from a conservative white background). I hope I can post some interesting material now and then. The more I have become involved in skepticism, the more I realize just how seemingly complicated close-mindedness can make the world out to be. It’s truly amazing how many of life’s BIG questions humans have already answered, and are in the process of answering, but people keep rejecting reality because it does not fit their “preferred” world view.
I really hope you guys can create some waves on some of the more “touchy” and controversial topics like religion. The fact that we’ve never even had evolution taught in schools has probably isolated us from any further scrutiny on religious topics that tread into the realm of science. 3 Years ago when I was still studying in Potch, I became outraged when our curriculum included subjects where the main purpose was to find middle ground between science and religion (You know… the old “But they CAN co-exist!”-argument). It was so blatantly ridiculous and NONE of the other students had anything to say towards the topic. I can’t help but feel that somehow South Africans have perfected the art of close mindedness and isolation of “spiritual” issues. While a great proportion of the world is currently locked in a battle primarily based on superstitions, somehow this topic almost never raises his head in discussions with my colleagues, friends, family etc.
I am currently a web developer in JHB. If you guys need ANY help, please sontact me!
;D
Hi, welcome to the forum. I agree, Especially Afrikaans university educated people do have a special knack for being religious and scientific at the same time, gracefully sidestepping contradictions and flawed arguments.
I would be interested to hear more about the subjects you mentioned.
It hasn’t been easy to talk to most South Africans about these topics…(especially if you’re from a conservative white background).
:
Coming from a conservative, deeply religious, Afrikaans background, I know exactly what you're talking about. Ever since reaching adulthood 50 years ago (that was when the peels fell off my eyes) I've more or less "suffered in silence" because in our culture being an atheist has always been considered a greater crime than rape, incest or murder. No, even greater -- having an atheist in the family spells eternal doom and damnation for every relative, unlike a murderer who may serve a sentence and is forgiven by everyone.
Discussing the subject even in the mildest terms, even today, usually leads to unpleasantness and avoidance. The worst experience I've had was when, while still at school, my arguments seem to cause serious doubts in the mind of my very religious friend. The utter bewilderment in his eyes and demeanour led to me to vow, there and then, never again to proactively try and convince any true believer of the folly of his faith. Some believers, I'm convinced, rely so heavily on their faith that if that crutch is taken away, they plunge into utter despair and confusion.
Of course it is a different matter when a believer takes me on and tries to convert me -- unfortunately that happens all too seldom. That is why I'm just as delighted to have discovered SA Skeptics recently -- it was like a window opening to let in some fresh air.
What I would like to see, however, is some action akin to the James Randy and Michael Shermer models: Exposing the thousands of scoundrels in our midst who rip off the innocent (stupid?) public with all sorts of false claims to the abnormal and bizarre. The Danie Krugel circus and "clairvoyant" Mariëtte Theunissen are sitting ducks. Why don't we take them on in public? --- Lead on, I'll follow!
First of all, topmedia, it’s Randi. Randy has another meaning, and now we know where your mind is ;D.
Just kidding. I like your ideas, and I think a good step for us to become more organised and cohesive is if we can have some informal/semi-formal meetups. I am in Jo’burg, and would be happy to organize one here sometime in the new year.
From there we could discuss where we would want to go (like becoming a formal organization).
Bluegray, what say you? You are the one who started the forum.
I’m not opposed to the idea, but I’m afraid for now my abilities and time will be restricted to the forum. I would be happy to let this serve as some sort of platform for this to take place though. But what you really need is someone with a big personality and good knowledge of the subject to do this full time. And there’s little money in it, so it would be difficult.
Bluegray,
Understood. I also would not have time to work on it full time.
I was just thinking that we could start having some informal, social type things and maybe we can grow from there if there is a following.
I must say, the forum is starting to get a number of visitors/members.
I like the idea of a social get-together; would you act as the convenor, Scienceteacherinexile? We could ask all visitors to this site to e-mail you, indicating whether they would be interested, where they are located etc.
As for action against people like Danie Krugel/Mariëtte Theunissen: I doubt if any member of our circle would have the wherewithall to conduct something like that. Actually, that would amount to doing the job of our toothless public media, since exposing paranormal fraudsters would demand much more serious research and organising than your average journalist would be willing to invest. And after the Deon Maas/Rapport fiasco, editors would be even more wary of anything that could hurt the tender beliefs of their publics. Reporting on crime and politics is much easier, the results more immediate and predictable. Moreover, perpetuating the myth as opposed to exploding it ensures continued public interest, hence more readers/viewers. The shoddy way Carte Blanche handled their first Krugel “investigation” is a case in point.
But let’s keep the debate alive. Perhaps we can find a way of persuading some TV/newspaper editor to really dig into this subject?
I like the idea of a social get-together; would you act as the convenor, Scienceteacherinexile? We could ask all visitors to this site to e-mail you, indicating whether they would be interested, where they are located etc.
I’m in Jo’burg too and think a social get together is a brilliant idea. I think once we sceptics become a little more organised tackling people like Danie Krugel and the like would be easier.
What about a monthly newsletter similar to JREF’s Swift to keep us updated on woo woo in South Africa?
For now it appears you won’t need a large venue for the get-together.
But thats a cynical observation… sorry. I hope you folks do manage to swell the numbers a bit.
I’m in the Lowveld and I can’t see too many skeptics around. The last time I counted, my home town had 11 congregations of, perhaps, as many religious denominations. All well attended. And that’s only countinq the white churches.
I do find this forum interesting and having read quite a few threads, I’m left with the impression that a few, erudite, big guns dominate the discussions. Somewhat spiritually inclined contrinutors are vanquished with unassailable reason, never to return. And that is a pity, because we run out of good debates.
Oops, I said “we”. With that I reveal that I’m a skeptic too.
I stumbled across SA Skeptics, having googled Danie Krugel. Today was the first time I heard of this character. Seems he might be at it again. This time its a pilot who went missing on his way to George. Search and recue (S&R) ops are in day 5 and no sign… Sooner or later the official search will be called off. The disdraught family was advised to contact Danie Krugel and he responded rather quickly with actual co-ordinates. Argh… the systematic S&R is now confounded with pleas to focus on the area Krugel has identified.
I’m in no position to put a stop to this madness because the family members are obviously clasping at straws. They’re in no mood for any “negativity”.
Anyway, now that I’ve found this forum, I shall at least be a regular reader and, perhaps, an irregular contributer. If I don’t get vanquished.
Hi, and welcome. I’m glad to hear you found us through a search for Krugel, after all that is the goal. Anybody doing a simple search can find out the truth about these characters. And be assured, that if you are vanquished, it will be by sound reasoning with the least amount of woo
Hi all,
Back from the nightmare that was my year end/beginning at work.
Getting back on the thread above, if people would like to have an informal meetup in the Joburg area, please respond in this thread. Also, suggestions of what type of meetup; I am thinking maybe just an hour some evening (say about 6:00) for drinks. We can see if there is interest and our numbers grow, or we get together and decide we don’t even like each other ;D
Depending on the response in this thread, I will take this further.
Though I can’t attend because of my remoteness, I have to share my thoughts on such a meeting:
Wouldn’t a meeting of skeptics be the most droll of occasions? Even embarassing or boring?
I mean, what would we discuss? The follies of religions? The assininity of creationists? The gullibility of the general public?
Forgive my negativity, again, but as skeptics we can only really have fun when we can “defollyiate” (apology to 'Luthon)some happless ‘believer’?
So, we sit around sip our wine and “tut-tut” those of blind faith…? Nah, we’ll need some fodder.
I’m not so sure. I think it would be great to get together with rational thinking people - I spend day in day out with the deluded (They’re everywhere). It really wouldn’t bug me if we sat and had coffee and chatted about spending time in bush (Where there are no power cuts! 8) ). Spending time and getting to know people that, in the words of Carl Sagan, find it “far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion no matter how satisfying and reassuring.”
Yeah Wandapec, that’s what I had in mind: social. Some discussions directly related to our skepticism would probably come up, but we need not be limited. I could discuss rugby or food or whatever else happens to come up.
But it seems everyone is as busy as I am.
