# The Elephant in the Room **URL:** \ **Category:** General Skepticism\ **Created:** [26 October 2019 06:30 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048 "2019-10-26T06:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [7 August 2020 03:45 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/21 "2020-08-07T03:45:16Z")
In other news, I’m sure this will make the investors come break down our doors: > **[South Africa has the third-most miserable economy in the world, according to...](https://www.businessinsider.co.za/money-and-markets/south-africa-misery-index-2020-8)** > > Only Venezuela and Argentina fared worse. ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [8 August 2020 18:28 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/22 "2020-08-08T18:28:21Z")
Nassim Taleb has some advice for those who keep on harping about colonialism; perhaps the same can be said about apartheid: ![](https://cdn.skepticza.org/original/2X/9/9b56254d4367d96d6c4a819c4d8a419dc9da90a5.jpeg) “…retrospective acrimony as an industry by itself…” I like that one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [24 August 2020 02:26 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/23 "2020-08-24T02:26:49Z")
Beginning of the end for Ramaphosa? > **[ANALYSIS: End of Cyril Ramaphosa ‘The Consensus Man’?](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-08-23-end-of-cyril-ramaphosa-the-consensus-man/)** > > Cyril Ramaphosa has written directly to ANC members, outlining detailed steps the party must take to fight corruption. In doing so, he might well have gone over the heads of the national executive committee (NEC) in general, and secretary-general Ace... ---
**Author:** ![Mefiante](https://forum.skepticza.org/user_avatar/forum.skepticza.org/mefiante/32/903_2.png) [@Mefiante](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/Mefiante)\ **Post date:** [24 August 2020 07:17 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/24 "2020-08-24T07:17:33Z")
I don’t read the article as posing the question whether Cyril Ramaphosa will be out on his ear soon; instead, I think Grootes is deliberating about a change in how CR will govern going forward. While a firmer handling of the reins of power may ultimately bring about his downfall in the ANC, the more immediate issue is whether his open letter to the ANC’s upper echelons marks a departure from his customary soft-pedalling, accommodationist style of not stirring up trouble within his party. If my understanding is correct, I think CR will not sustain his sterner approach for very long before simply falling back into the old ways. After all, the rot is deeper now than ever before and he stood idly by for years while the plundering, looting, and subversion of the state took place. He had enough clout to see it all, to raise the alarm, and to take meaningful action, yet he did nothing other than mouth occasional placatory platitudes and remain silent for most of the rest of the time. Furthermore, he’s been at the helm for near enough three years now and we haven’t seen any significant action being taken against anyone of stature. NDPP head Shamila Batohi’s—a CR appointee, please note—handwringing pleadings about how eviscerated the NPA still is, is becoming tiresome and empty. Action, not words. I certainly hope I’ll be proved wrong on that score and that CR will actually maintain more fortified guts for the sake of SA, but I don’t think that’ll happen. The state, including the judiciary, is too damaged for sudden bravery on the part of a few to make much difference. 'Luthon64 ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [24 August 2020 07:25 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/25 "2020-08-24T07:25:23Z")
I think it is possible that CR is beginning to realize that his legacy, for all of history, is going to be one in which he stood at the head of a party corrupt to the core, and presided over fat cats quite literally stealing from the poor to enrich themselves. It’s the kind of thing JZ was too stupid to care about; perhaps it is different with Ramaphosa. But I fear Mefiante is probably right: the entire party has become so rotten there is nothing more to do for any self-respecting member of it than to very publicly resign. I half hope Ramaphosa will do so, and then do a press conference in which he says, publicly and unambiguously, that he did so because his conscience would no longer allow him to stay on. I won’t be holding my breath. But I do think that in another election or two, the ANC might well lose its outright majority, and then we’ll become the Italy of Africa, with a new, ineffectual (and probably corrupt) coalition government every year. ---
**Author:** ![Mintaka](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@Mintaka](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/Mintaka)\ **Post date:** [25 August 2020 04:51 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/26 "2020-08-25T04:51:52Z")
There is always room for more parties. Realising that the ANC is an irreparable mess, Cyril will spawn a new party which markets itself as exceedingly good and competent in every way that the ANC is not. - wraps crystal ball in a red velvet cloth and returns it to its biscuit tin \* ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [25 August 2020 09:14 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/27 "2020-08-25T09:14:46Z")
> [@Rigil Kent post:26](#): > > There is always room for more parties. Realising that the ANC is an irreparable mess, Cyril will spawn a new party which markets itself as exceedingly good and competent in every way that the ANC is not. > > - wraps crystal ball in a red velvet cloth and returns it to its biscuit tin \* Max du Preez has often expressed a wish for the saner part of the ANC and DA breaking away from their parties and forming a new one. Perhaps this will happen. I can envision far worse scenarios than a series of ineffectual coalition governments, mind you. South Africa is ethnically and politically so diverse that it is perhaps actually the only realistic option for the medium term - the ANC’s huge support was perhaps somewhat artificial. I have also become more supportive of the idea (the idea, not necessarily the parties themselves!) of small ethnic and specialist parties like the VF+, Inkatha and Reverend Meshoe’s Christian party. It shouldn’t be a problem as long as it doesn’t spiral into open ethnic hatred, and there is much to be said for a party that is very homogeneous and can therefore focus all its efforts on one particular part of the population. Such a party tends to also be more resilient against corruption, because it tends to lose all its support virtually overnight, at the slightest sign of scandal or corruption. Our obsession with “unity” is nonsense. There has never been unity in South Africa and there never will be, and that might actually be a good thing. The ANC, and even more so Zimbabwe, has shown us what comes of unity. So bring on the bazillions of small parties to add to the general clamor, and hopefully prevent one single bunch of corrupt, psychopathic fat cats taking total power. I suppose the Purple Cow still has my vote, if they run in the coming election. They seem to be the closest thing we have to the RP - the Rational Party. 🙂 Incidentally, based on how busy the local mall is, the economy seems to be slowly getting back on track. Well, at least the mostly white middle class economy. And it’s true, isn’t it? - South Africa increasingly has two different economies. There is the middle class economy, which is a more or less normal economy, functioning like modern economies everywhere do (albeit very heavily parasitized). Then there is the economy of the poor, which produces nothing but gets injections in the form of social grants. A good percentage of it consists of illegal immigrants too, but they don’t stay in it long because they work themselves up and out of it to join the middle class economy. The middle class economy is fairly diverse, and as such also fairly resilient against shocks. I suppose it is too early to tell whether it will survive the Covid shock, but thus far the signs are not too bad, and if it does it will give one some confidence that it can survive almost anything (except, presumably, a communist government). I don’t know what will happen to the poor economy, and to be honest, I care ever less and less. They now mostly have themselves to blame - they have to firstly vote their beloved ANC out of power, and then, once we no longer have a government with a choke hold on the economy, start doing what all those “job-stealing” immigrants are doing, and start to take care of themselves. If they don’t or won’t, well, then I suppose their social grant will have to do. ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [26 August 2020 07:38 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/28 "2020-08-26T07:38:37Z")
And in the latest news: > **[Parliament: SA Reserve Bank must be nationalised without compensation to end...](https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-08-26-sa-reserve-bank-must-be-nationalised-without-compensation-to-end-white-capital-domination-argues-floyd-shivambu/)** > > The SA Reserve Bank must be nationalised and private shares expropriated without compensation, argued EFF Chief Whip and Deputy President Floyd Shivambu before Parliament’s finance committees. With this, the noise around the central bank has been... Now here’s a question: suppose the SARB is nationalized. By Mr. Shivambu’s own argument, that will be the end of “white monopoly capital.” But what will he say five years later, when the poor are still as poor as ever (or poorer) and the gap between rich and poor even greater? Will he admit that it was after all not white monopoly capital that was the problem, or will he simply shift the goal posts? I wait with bated breath… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [7 October 2020 14:41 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/29 "2020-10-07T14:41:34Z")
This is perhaps just peripherally related to this thread, but I’m too lazy to start a new one. In a recent discussion on Quora, the topic was tolerance, more specifically, western European tolerance. I posted a comment that in my experience, the Europeans are not quite as tolerant as they seem. The thing is, they live in pretty homogeneous societies, with the result that their tolerance has actually never been tested. Now that bazillions of unassimilable immigrants are streaming into their countries, they are getting decidedly nervous. I eventually got a very irate comment from a Dutch lady, who told me in no uncertain terms that they are in fact very, very tolerant, and not a bunch of racists like us. They have no problem at all with immigrants. The immigrants must just integrate, then they are completely welcome. Of course, it is not at all unreasonable to expect of immigrants to integrate, but it kind of made my point. She started singing a different and more muted tune when I informed her that here in South Africa, there simply is no such thing is one, single norm to which anyone, whether an immigrant or a local, can integrate. We are confronted every single day by difference, sometimes radical difference. It requires stores of tolerance from us that most Europeans cannot imagine. And this too is something of an elephant in the room, because our current rulers are doing everything they can to ignore such differences in culture and pretend that we’re all one big, happy family (apart from such pesky people as white monopoly capital, of course). Rainbow nation? Maybe, but in a rainbow the colours are separate. A rainbow does not consist of a muddy mix of all the colours. I find myself ever more an enthusiastic supporter of the Orania project, even though I will probably not personally go live there. But I am beginning to see their point. ---
**Author:** ![BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/user_avatar/forum.skepticza.org/boogiemonster/32/901_2.png) [@BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/BoogieMonster)\ **Post date:** [8 October 2020 07:53 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/30 "2020-10-08T07:53:31Z")
Having met people from various countries around the world I find much of this unsurprising. Indian colleagues originally from the subcontinent report often being unable to drive to certain cities in India because locals will see their number plate and start throwing stones at them, or otherwise physically attack them, so they have to travel with caution. Another person originally from Belgium reports that it’s not unusual for people from different towns to have a deep disdain for each other, which in his words “runs as deep as Nazism…”. Having been to the US I found them surprisingly intolerant of, I have to qualify that I chuckle to say it, “wrong” language usage. To you and me this means speaking the queen’s english instead of their bastardized version. Americans of all spheres will seriously take a time out to “educate” (condescend to) you if they think you’re using the wrong word for something… even if you’re using a more correct one than they are. From this I learnt that our varied culture requires some level of interpretation based on context and wider appreciation of varied language, that they seem incapable of. Like, sometimes in SA someone can say something that’s not in a language you understand… but you still “get” it and you don’t stop the flow to try and understand/correct it. They just don’t. Thus, I have to sadly agree with your post. Tribalism exists everywhere, and unfortunately we try to structure society in a bit of naïveté of this fact. I saw a documentary (I don’t recall the name, I’ll try to find it and edit maybe later here) by a person responsible for “diversity” in the City of London who after a number of years simply gave up on trying to integrate the city. He came to the conclusion that people of similar culture simply want to live together and there’s nothing you can do to prevent it and still have them be free people. This was a controversial stance, to say the least, even though said person was black himself. However, I would argue that one can still try to foster a meta-culture of tolerance and understanding. The problem being (tying in to your Orania comment…) that we create larger overarching societies with power concentrations and sadly the moment one group start seizing some of that power it seemingly immediately tries to exercise that power over whatever groups don’t have it. Abortion laws, Marriage rights, “Who needs to bake cake for whom”, efforts to police language, thought, BBBEEEEE (EEEEEEE?), etc… As it stands I think SA, on microcosm scale, actually has tons of understanding and mutual respect of different cultures if you ignore the news and focus on your daily interactions. Is it just me or are the people at home affairs, traffic dept, et al. growing more polite with time? I could swear some years ago you’d be lucky to get a scowl, but these days they seem positively happy to help. This may be forced customer service training at work? At informal gatherings I see nothing but a group of diverse people breaking bread and having a great time. It’s not all doom and gloom out there. But as said the problem is at the top, where the power concentrates… things go out of whack. So maybe the solution could be more self determination. Yet somehow I doubt that too. I have to wonder how far that kind of thing can go before neighboring factions start warring over resources again. Perhaps that’s what we do, sub-(or not)consciously all the time. ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [8 October 2020 09:32 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/31 "2020-10-08T09:32:57Z")
> [@BoogieMonster post:30](#): > > I saw a documentary (I don’t recall the name, I’ll try to find it and edit maybe later here) by a person responsible for “diversity” in the City of London who after a number of years simply gave up on trying to integrate the city. He came to the conclusion that people of similar culture simply want to live together and there’s nothing you can do to prevent it and still have them be free people. This was a controversial stance, to say the least, even though said person was black himself. Thing is, there is nothing wrong with this sort of voluntary segregation. On the contrary, it greatly enhances the charm of a city if there are ethnic neighbourhoods with their own character, as long as it doesn’t descend into ethnic hatred. The problem with apartheid wasn’t the segregation as such, it was the forced segregation (which is another thing altogether) and the exploitation of cheap labour. The lefties are trying to force tolerance on us by trying to ram everyone into everyone else’s faces; it can only lead to conflict. In a sense, our tolerance is tested every bit as much by groups that wish to keep to themselves. How good are we at tolerating groups like, say, the Amish, or the Jehovah Witnesses, or, in the case of SA, the Orania folks? Seems to me that if a group keeps to itself and bothers no one, and complies more or less with national law and bill of rights, there is no reason to go scratch where it ain’t itching. > I have to wonder how far that kind of thing can go before neighboring factions start warring over resources again. Perhaps that's what we do, sub-(or not)consciously all the time. Yes, there is always that problem. The Oranians chose their site well: it is semi-desert that almost no one wants. But of course, the big weakness there is the water supply. There are limits to the size of society that can be supported by the Orange River. ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [13 July 2021 12:40 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/32 "2021-07-13T12:40:42Z")
> [@brianvds](#): > > What I did notice among them was not so much financial poverty, as a sort of poverty of spirit. They may have been middle class financially, but they were also clearly low class scum. Supporting political policies that will dump them straight back into the poverty in which their parents probably grew up. I said the above bit almost two years ago. In view of recent events, we can revisit it. Covid gave our economy a knock, and thus, I was kind of waiting for the masses of desperate poor to descend on supermarkets and help themselves. I may not approve of it, but I can understand it. Here’s the bit that is less easy to understand: substantial numbers of these looters are not poor. There have now been numerous reports of middle class and upper middle class people arriving at malls in expensive SUVs and high end sedans, and loading up on wide screen TVs, cell phones, luxury sitting room furniture and so on. My landlady’s daughter tells me she saw a video on social media of a looter in a supermarket, literally plunging his face into a creamy cake and munching like a pig, and it is clear he was taking the video himself. The fact that he has a cell phone tells me he’s not poor. The fact that he posted it on social media tells me he’s stupid. So here we are again at the phrase I used in the quoted bit: poverty of spirit. As far as I can tell, no immigrants from the rest of Africa participated. I’m not aware of any whites, poor or otherwise, who looted anything either. Just blacks, and specifically, black South Africans. Not all of them, mind you. My landlady’s daughter tells me another thing. She has a black pal; he put up a social media post with photos of the looting, saying, (paraphrased) “you are playing right into the hands of the racists. THIS is why people call us k\*ffirs.” Once again I have to wonder: just what the fuck is it that is going on in this country, that seems not to afflict almost any other countries? Where there are parallels in other countries (e.g. in Britain, when they do loot, it is also often not just the poor that participate, and they do indeed also have a goodly sized population of poor-spirited yobs), what can one possibly learn from it? As an aside, in some areas, civilians started up their own initiatives to protect their suburbs; basically men with guns started patrolling. They did so in cooperation with and with the blessing of the overwhelmed police. This might make for an interesting data point in the current debate about the government’s attempt to disarm the entire populace… ---
**Author:** ![BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/user_avatar/forum.skepticza.org/boogiemonster/32/901_2.png) [@BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/BoogieMonster)\ **Post date:** [13 July 2021 13:28 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/33 "2021-07-13T13:28:44Z")
> My landlady’s daughter tells me she saw a video on social media of a looter in a supermarket, literally plunging his face into a creamy cake and munching like a pig [Here you go.](https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/comments/oipexl/let_them_eat_cake/) ---
**Author:** ![brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@brianvds](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/brianvds)\ **Post date:** [14 July 2021 03:22 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/34 "2021-07-14T03:22:54Z")
In fairness, not everyone is a looter… > **[Tembisa community use their bodies as shields to protect mall from looters |...](https://www.news24.com/citypress/news/tembisa-community-use-their-bodies-as-shields-to-protect-mall-from-looters-20210713)** > > Residents from Birch Acres in Tembisa banded together with the Ekurhuleni Metro Police Department to protect their community from looters. ---
**Author:** ![BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/user_avatar/forum.skepticza.org/boogiemonster/32/901_2.png) [@BoogieMonster](https://forum.skepticza.org/u/BoogieMonster)\ **Post date:** [14 July 2021 08:30 UTC](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048/35 "2021-07-14T08:30:55Z")
> [@brianvds](#): > > Covid gave our economy a knock, and thus, I was kind of waiting for the masses of desperate poor to descend on supermarkets and help themselves. I may not approve of it, but I can understand it. I’d think Zuma himself started the knock, Ramaphosa kept twisting the knife, and Covid is just sealing the deal. > [@](#): > > Here’s the bit that is less easy to understand: substantial numbers of these looters are not poor. There have now been numerous reports of middle class and upper middle class people arriving at malls in expensive SUVs and high end sedans, and loading up on wide screen TVs, cell phones, luxury sitting room furniture and so on. We do seem to be sitting with a stunning lack of morality. It’s hard to imagine how this country can ever flourish if this is how we’re going to act. > [@](#): > > So here we are again at the phrase I used in the quoted bit: poverty of spirit. As far as I can tell, no immigrants from the rest of Africa participated. I’m not aware of any whites, poor or otherwise, who looted anything either. Just blacks, and specifically, black South Africans. I did see a post of some indian guy who also joined in being admonished by his community while lying on the ground… I don’t think poverty and desperation knows race. It wouldn’t surprise me if they exist but just don’t get the press. > [@](#): > > Not all of them, mind you. My landlady’s daughter tells me another thing. She has a black pal; he put up a social media post with photos of the looting, saying, (paraphrased) “you are playing right into the hands of the racists. THIS is why people call us k\*ffirs.” I’ve seen some FB posts of people regretting voting “Yes”. Which is a sad commentary on how the wheel has turned. Very sad indeed. > [@](#): > > Once again I have to wonder: just what the fuck is it that is going on in this country Honestly the only assessment I have left is that we’ve crammed a modern democratic peg into a feudalistic hole and it’s turning out to be completely incompatible. > [@](#): > > , that seems not to afflict almost any other countries? Where there are parallels in other countries (e.g. in Britain, when they do loot, it is also often not just the poor that participate, and they do indeed also have a goodly sized population of poor-spirited yobs), what can one possibly learn from it? Reality sucks. People are violent and more basic than we like to give our “superior species” credit for, and we can’t hope to achieve peace in another 50 lifetimes. If I were an alien I’d quarantine us from spreading. > [@](#): > > As an aside, in some areas, civilians started up their own initiatives to protect their suburbs; basically men with guns started patrolling. They did so in cooperation with and with the blessing of the overwhelmed police. This might make for an interesting data point in the current debate about the government’s attempt to disarm the entire populace… Oh I think this has cemented the attitude of many that should the police come to collect arms they’ll be met with communities ready to fight. I think that debate is either going to completely disappear or turn into an actual civil war… if we’re not in one already. [Previous page](https://forum.skepticza.org/t/the-elephant-in-the-room/5048.md?page=1)