The Out Campaign is a public awareness initiative for freethought and atheism. It is endorsed by Richard Dawkins, who is a prominent atheist himself. The campaign aims to create a more positive image of atheism by providing a means by which atheists can identify themselves to others by displaying the Scarlet 'A'. It encourages those who wish to be part of the campaign to come out, reach out, speak out, keep out, stand out and re-appropriate, in a humorous way, the social stigma that in some places persists against atheism, by branding themselves with an ironic scarlet letter.Personally I don't really have a problem with the campaign, but since skeptics aren't necessarily atheists, I think it best to support it on a personal level, rather than as skeptics. What do you think?
Hello Bluegray V, is it too late to reply to your musings on the OUT campaign? If not, here are a few remarks: First, if one is a skeptic (sceptic?) surely one shows scepticism towards something specific. As there is a vast number of things which one doesn’t take at face value, does it make sense to have a forum questioning everything, including politics and the people involved in it? I think the forum should be targeted towards a generic subject, because otherwise it will become impossible to manage. Kalahari.net has a book which I bought recently titled ‘The Demon-haunted World’ by the late Carl Sagan. Although it deals with a lot of things, these are things that affect peoples minds. Otherwise we could feel sceptical about ads for washing powders, or Viagra, or whatever. I think you should put boundaries around the things you want discussed on the forum, no?
if one is a skeptic (sceptic?) surely one shows scepticism towards something specific
Not necessarily … I’m a general purpose sceptic (OK, a disagreeable old grump), and will also question washing powder ads if they seem fishy. So please spare at least a little nook in this forum for the ostensibly trivial things that get my goat.:'(.
Besides, the forum is already subdivided into the more popular flavours of scepticism, not so?
Mintaka
Not to worry, I think we can handle the odd washing powder ad now and again
But what does that have to do with the OUT campaign? As long as the different topics stay in the relevant sections I’m sure we won’t be swamped
sorry, just as a comment. OUT is a gay newspaper firstly. OUT is allso a out and proud gay campaign associated with the pride marches… so, OUT may or may not be the right name for atheists. allso, i really dont see the need for atheist to want to ring their own bell’s like that. tut tut.
what makes the skeptical movement free and positive, is because we dont recruit. if we start recruiting, putting campaigns together… then firstly, we would be no better than every woo-monger trying to win souls. secondly, if we start making ourselves visible, and try to garden support, then we would give the church endless ammo, because we, the faithless, are trying to steal sheep from god.
just saying…
I support the idea of an OUT campaign and don’t mind the fact that OUT is borrowed from the gay dictionary. It works well 'cause everyone already knows about coming out.
And yes, no need for us to get all zealous and start recruiting (thanks for the reminder), but I do see a need for us to begin speaking OUT where possible. Simply because the increasing religious fanaticism is rather scary… We need to encourage the idea that it’s okay to question stuff, to talk about philosophical issues.
GCG: I don’t follow, all the things you say I could replace with the same argument about gays having to shut up and stay in the closet.
The point is not to win “souls”, but to show the world we exist, and are not that bad, and can be tolerated.
This is exactly the same as gay pride.
(Yes I am a HUGE hypocrite because I’m in the atheist closet)
celebrating pride, is celebrating thousands of year’s worth of oppression being overthrown. being gay, isnt a choise. and yet, gay people are being oppressed. and i actually cannot fathom why i have to explain the difference between militant atheism, and gay pride to you.
as many in-your-face queens and dykes there are, there are plenty more who are low-key, and keep to themselves. pride is not about recruiting. pride is about celebrating your beautifull identity.
militant atheism, is about trying to convince the religious they are wrong. which only a minute percentage will even listen, if even take seriously. if the seed of doubt isnt within you allready, then no amount of logic is going to convince you otherwise. and if there is an orginisation actively trying to tell you that your religion is a lie, then you will cling even harder to god. because you are being ‘tempted’.
yes, i agree that there needs to be platforms where those who are curious can come, like this forum. you can hold seminars and bull till the cows come home. but standing outside the gates of mr potato, will achieve buggerall. (eventhough it would be loads of fun)
the gay community doesnt go around, discussing why being straight is so stupid, and they are going to start websites and have lectures about narrowminded and illogical being straight is. they dont give a rat’s ass. they do their thing. they will get militant if you endanger their way of life. pride march concentrates on celebrating homosexuality, for gays, friends and supporters of gays. they have no need to convince anybody of anything.
i can liken gay pride to a guy sitting in his house. he is watching telly and having a beer. minding his own business. eventhough his house is painted pink. his gun is in the safe, and he will use it if needs be.
the militant atheist is running around in the streets, waving his gun. he freaks people out, and someone who might have come out and talked to him eventually, get scared shitless, and stays indoors, locks his doors, and will never do anything remotely outlandish.
there is no need to recruit. there is no need to spread the word. there is no need to start orginisations. if we are actively push the issue of the needlessness and idiocy of religion, we will lose way more than we gain.
even without this forum, everybody on here, have come to the conclusion of skepticism on their own.
and every tool we use to try and convince people otherwise, is giving the religious a better grip on their congregation.
Lost me at militant atheism. No-one said the atheists had to be militant. Just that they’d admit it public they are non-believers. That’s not very militant, or is it?
as many in-your-face queens and dykes there are, there are plenty more who are low-key, and keep to themselves.
Bingo.
Lemme fix this for you…
[b]being atheist[/b] is not about recruiting. [b]coming out as an atheist[/b] is about celebrating your beautifull identity.
militant atheism, is about trying to convince the religious they are wrong.
Yeah but we’re not talking about militant atheism…
I’m not sure how you translated coming out as “deconversion tactics”. This is about simply identifying yourself as an atheist.
yes, i agree that there needs to be platforms where those who are curious can come, like this forum.
So do I.
you can hold seminars and bull till the cows come home. but standing outside the gates of mr potato, will achieve buggerall. (eventhough it would be loads of fun)
Seriously chick I dunno where you’re getting this…
every tool we use to try and convince people otherwise, is giving the religious a better grip on their congregation
I could argue that every time we speak out it makes others think a bit and loosens the dreaded guilty hold that religion has on most people.
The extent to which each of us goes public with our scepticism or atheism will vary in accordance with our circumstances and commitment. Personally I am not keen on advertising my convictions with flashing neon signs, and for that reason I do not want any revealing bumper stickers or T-shirts, as witty as some of them might be. However, I do not make a secret of my views, should a related topic enter conversation.
I view this forum as more than just a “Facebook for sceptics” where we socialize aimlessly. So far we have had ~ 6 335 000 page views, from which it should be self-evident that there is significant interest in our conversations and debates. We regularly highlight war, atrocities and exploitation committed in the name of religion and pseudoscience. That does not mean we have to stop at this forum. Members have written books, run websites and made speeches to promote the causes we stand for. In no way does this equate us to evangelical xtians or any other religious group recruiting members, because the causes we promote are worthy and sensible; there might be similarities in method, but not in goal. It may be argued that we have a moral responsibility to do so. The Edmund Burke quote that “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing,” is probably familiar to most of us on this forum.
Both the sceptic and atheist movements remain fringe groupings in SA society. The first step in changing this is creating awareness. This should be backed by justification. Once a significant proportion of a society supports a movement, it gains momentum.
In this context I support the OUT campaign.
Yes, our society have much in common with the gay cause, ie. both Lilli and I have lost jobs because of our convictions. I know many gay people that came out and had to endure the same treatment, same with my crossgender friend. As with the gay community, we also have to take care of when and how we state our beliefs (or lack thereof). In some circumstances we actually have it worse than the gay community. Last night I had to sit through an hour’s preaching and praying simply to see my son on stage, I cannot go make a noise about it because the possibility that they’ll sideline my kids are there. I have to bite my tongue on a daily basis when religion comes up, such as the training course on Protocol I’m attending at the moment, culture and religion is discussed at length and I have to just shut my trap and suffer through it.
I think there is much to be said for coming out as an atheist. It doesn’t have to be done in an aggressive way. There might be closeted atheists who feel isolated and hopeless that are encouraged by realising someone else they know feels the same way. Or, someone who is having doubts about their religion might feel encouraged to explore atheism if they had a positive atheist role model.
I definitely don’t think there should be pressure on people to out themselves if this will endanger their well-being or income.
how exactly does being a straight atheist liken to be gay again? its pure arrogance to liken the atheist cause to the gay cause.
are atheist being killed off for their beliefs? if so, tell me where? are there laws again being atheist? (apart from friggin iraq and its ilk)
are atheist being beaten up and raped to ‘get them right’.
if you walk in the street with your partner, do people look at you funny and make comments, straight atheists?
atheism and homosexuality is like chalk and cheese.
and while i will admit, there are some factors that both struggle with, to want to stand shoulder to shoulder, is not going to work, and i know a good few moffies and letties who will be very offended at the idea that the atheist cause wants to hold hands and swop recipies.
the gay community is predominenetly christian, and they will tell an atheist punter to piss off.
and for the record:
atheist - the rejection of belief in the existence of deities
implicit atheist - the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it (you were simply never told about god)
militant atheist - atheists who are, or are perceived to be, hostile towards religion (ring a bell?)
Agnosticism - the existence or non-existence of any deity,is unknown or unknowable
Apatheism - ack of interest towards belief, or lack of belief in a deity (IMHO, the way to go)
While I’m all for outspoken atheism, I’m not to fond of the OUT label either. To me it sounds as if atheists are trying to bum a ride on the back of the gay community’s efforts.
Would be nice to name it the REBIRTH campaign, for (hopefully) obvious reasons.
Mintaka
how about the UNBIRTH campaign. your ‘christening’ consists of wiping your forehead with a cloth.
Uhm, that would be the IN campaign.
There is little sense in deliberating different names now, considering that the OUT campaign was launched circa July 2007.
Yes, I realize that we are deliberating different names after the fact, and I don’t really have any ambitions to change the OUT effort. Its only a campaign … not a boulevard in Pretoria.
Mintaka
I think we’re already OUT…even the pope is worried!
What we are not is united as the gay movement became given the discrimination it was subjected to (and still is unhappily).
I don’t think atheists by their very nature will become united, unless they too are subjected to worldwide discrimination and subjugation…this could happen. ???