...and so homeopathy is a cure-all

Skepticism Junk Science and Alternative Medicine
21

None of this relates to homeopathy.

The patient has the right to not choose to go to a homeopath , but often do as 'the last resort' when conventional medicine has failed them.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Homeopaths do not make close to enough money to survive and often they are extremely caring people who want the best for their patients.

The road to hell can be paved by good intentions. Homeopaths struggling to make a living does not give anyone a free pass to ignore scientific inquiry and scrutiny.

In south Africa we study for 7 years and have to do a masters dissertation , it is the only country where homeopaths are trained in diagnostics, pathology (By Medical Doctors as lecturers) and do a premed, including 2 years of human dissection. It is thanks to some weirdos who use machines and pendulums that have given homeopaths a bad name, and regulations needs to be strict.

Agreed, it needs to be so strict homeopathy is not allowed to be practised until it can deliver scientific evidence. Machines and pendulums have about the same amount of evidence going for them as homeopathy, so why hate on them?

Homeopathy has a long way to go in proving itself scientifically, and i think it shouldn't make ridiculous claims until it can rightfully prove so, since, if science cant prove it, it doesn't work right?.

So, how many more hundreds of years do you think homeopathy needs to deliver that evidence? Scientific fields of medicine can often deliver that evidence in a decade or two, why is homeopathy still found lacking? Even after all this inquiry is there no evidence for it?

The way in which homeopaths and naturopaths view diseases is important, they look at the entire picture not just a symptom, which is, for me, the healing factor itself, medical doctors can learn a thing a two from this.

What is preventing those folks from becoming fully-qualified MD’s themselves then and transforming the medical profession from within? If they are so concerned about the wellbeing of patients why do they stick to non-evidence based medicine instead of choosing techniques that are proven to make their patients better? Don’t they care enough to enquire? Don’t they care enough to prove that their medicine works before applying it?

P.S. lets not forget the title 'Doctor' means 'To teach' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title) , therefore doctors should be teaching and educating their patients on medications, health and disease not just handing out prescriptions. So whether it be a homeopathic 'doctor' or a medical doctor, if they take the title it is their duty to effectively inform patients which unfortunately doctors just don't do enough because they think we are stupid.

This is true, but be careful not to paint the entire profession with the same brush. I’ve had MD’s that I’ve abandoned because they wanted to write a script and escourt me out before explaining what was wrong with me. My current MD I’ve chosen specifically because he listens, tries to figure out causes instead of treating symptoms, and explains to me what is happening. It’s folly to act like the entire medical profession doesn’t do this.

22

Basically as i said, i agree, homeopathic medicines need to be investigated further.

As a young homeopath i feel the bigger victim than the odd person who uses homeopathy, i feel homeopaths are bombarded by reps from neutraceutical companies, often started or owned by medical physicians themselves (Solal brands for example), spend alot of money on education and products they believe will allow them to help people and build a career and are actually really misguided.

I agree pharmacy vitamin/health section is a joke, waste of people’s hard earned cash on most of those un-regluated products, enter MCC anytime soon. Part of the problem here is poor quality and lack of educating people on what is really needed and when. Working in pharmacies for over seven years, the difference made (in the dispensary) and in the health section and well as the clinic, was correctly informing people. I do use website (www.examine.com) which has an easy to read analysis on vitamins and minerals.

I do however think it cannot be ignored that disease is far more complex than any one truly understands, patients who do feel better with homeopaths respond possibly to their approach, such as actually listening to patients problems, and effective patient management. Homeopathy does support that there is a link between physical symptoms and previous emotional trauma. So the idea of getting to the root of the problem, whether it stems psychologically or something as simple as a magnesium deficiency, is vital to achieving a long term healing plan for patients, given a homeopathic remedy or not.

The other idea in homeopathy, is that people are treated as individuals,the idea that the same disease will effect our body chemistry the same way is not true and treatments need to be more individualized , than the ‘one drug fits all’ approach. I have heard oncologists say in twenty-thirty years they have had no two presentations of breast cancer alike but yet the treatment protocol remains the same for all, some effective some not.

I am not saying homeopathy shouldn’t be criticized, i agree it should, but the strengths in the fact that it has been around for so long, need to be investigated further into the points mentioned above, and possibly medicine as a whole should adopt some of its positive principles, it will be difficult though since its easier to treat eczema with cortisone and doctors would make far less money having to spend longer than 15mins per patient.

The evolved doctors of this time should be medical trained physicians who accept the concepts of the PRO’s of therapies such as homeopathy and nutrition.

23

Could you understand then why we’re so vocal about it? I mean if the actual practitioners are misguided, how much moreso are the patients?

... do however think it cannot be ignored that disease is far more complex than any one truly understands,

This is exactly what medical researchers try to do each day. The only way we can uncover the puzzle is to keep at it with science.

Homeopathy does support that there is a link between physical symptoms and previous emotional trauma.

Science based medicine acknowledges this link as well.

So the idea of getting to the root of the problem, whether it stems psychologically or something as simple as a magnesium deficiency, is vital to achieving a long term healing plan for patients, given a homeopathic remedy or not.

So why call it homeopathy then? All the points you raise can be addressed within the medical profession without invoking the word “homeopathy” at all. Why do you assume the “h” word without really believing in the very core of what it means?

The other idea in homeopathy, is that people are treated as individuals,the idea that the same disease will effect our body chemistry the same way is not true and treatments need to be more individualized , than the 'one drug fits all' approach.

From what I can see this is already happening in the 1st world via genetics-based tests. I read an article recently where docs overseas are starting to find that patients with strange conditions can often be accurately diagnosed using a genetics test that, say, reveals an inability to digest/process/manufacture a certain compound. They then get given exactly what they need and get better. Something unfathomable just 10-15, heck maybe 5, years ago. This is just going to get better and better. Completely individualised medicine.

I am not saying homeopathy shouldn't be criticized, i agree it should, but the strengths in the fact that it has been around for so long, need to be investigated further into the points mentioned above,

My point is, “the points mentioned above” are not unique to homeopathy or even that much related to the core concept. There’s nothing inherently about homeopathy that makes it the only source for this kind of information or implementation. Homeopathy is wrong, and you’re trying to make it seem right based on certain common practices of it’s adherents that have nothing to do with homeopathy itself.

24

Considering how long homoeopathy has had to prove itself, that’s certainly a much more reasonable inference than holding out the vague hope that it does. In science, it is our duty always to behave as if an unproven hypothesis is false otherwise we’ll just fool ourselves more and more by straying further from what we do confidently know. Note that this approach does not stifle research.

One of the major reasons homoeopathy has “succeeded” is that in Hahnemann’s day, “conventional” medicine was decidedly dangerous (mercury salts, bloodletting, bad hygiene, false causes, etc.), often doing considerably more harm than good. In contrast, homoeopathy, by doing no more than exploiting the placebo effect, at least gave patients a chance to recover by themselves and so the false impression was created that “homoeopathy works”.

This illusion persists to this day and continues to be carried forward by sheer momentum.

The fact remains that compelling evidence for the efficacy of homoeopathy is scant-to-none, that positive results are almost always found only by those who have a vested interest in finding such, that homoeopathy’s tenets are wholly at odds with other well-established science, and that the ever-growing list of various mechanisms proposed for how homoeopathy could work carries a heavy shroud of contrivedness about it (not to mention a paucity of good reasons for believing any of them to be valid) and is hence unconvincing.

'Luthon64

25

When the homeopath helps a patient with her emotional problems by listening and talking to her, then he’s an analyst. When the homeopath gives sound advice on eating habits, then he’s a nutritionist. When the homeopath prescribes useful exercise routines, then he’s a human movement scientist. That’s all fine. What I worry about is the homeopath practicing homeopathy.

26

That’s an oxymoron.

Or an egregious misuse of the word “philosophers”.

:wink:

'Luthon64

27

DrT, you need to read ‘Trick or treatment’ by Simon Singh and Edzard Ernst:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial/dp/0552157627]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trick-Treatment-Alternative-Medicine-Trial/dp/0552157627

Edzard Ernst is the world’s first professor of complementary medicine, based at Exeter University. He started out as a GP with a homeopathy interest. Initially he thought he was having good results with his homeopathic treatments, so he decided to run double-blind placebo controlled trials. To his amazement, he found his results were not better than random. I use ‘amazement’ because he had convinced himself that he was getting positive results (this is human nature - we remember the positive results but not the negative ones, leading to selection bias). He also goes on to test all sorts of other alternative medicine.

It is a very worthwhile read and is also highly entertaining.

28

Don’t know whether to post this here under homeopathy bull shit or under a thread to do with MLMs

Mannatech IMO is the worst when it comes to their sales tactics, they seemingly target the sick and desperate, especially cancer patients, happened to my friends and family twice now.

I was invited to my friend’s home for this presentation by this Mannatech guy, needless to say I gave him hell. He went on and on about this Ambrotose supplements with “glyconutrients” the lady had terminal cancer and was put on morphine for pain management - he would have her throw that away and take this “miracle, cure-all” fucking Mannatech bullshit and pay the R4000 joining fee, scary part is that I’m almost sure they’d have fallen for this hook, line and sinker if I weren’t there, they’re kinda… sheeple, good salt of the earth people, you know… Then my sister got cancer and within 2 weeks she received a Mannatech pamphlet and dvd… Suffice it to say that I gave her a mouthful on these scumbags…

29

These guys are liars and thieves. And psychopaths because they prey on desperation. Or idiots because they believe in their product.

Do they claim any HIV cure? If so, they can be shut down legally.

30

Just that. Desperation can sometimes make idiots of anyone and especially on the more trusting good-folk.

I’ve googled them a little bit, mean I don’t want to tob and turn about them or give them the light of day or anything, but I’ve read that they are sued for millions, and yet they’re seemingly growing, it’s weird how I run into these people, I mean first it was the guys with Golden Products, Herbalife and Amway, usually I make good friends with them, they’re actually very good sales people sometimes (in a weird fundie way - they got that same glaze over their eyes when they’re talking MLM churchfolk get)

And this is the really bad thing about Mannatech - once you buy into it, I guess it’s like joining a cult, you need to believe it and you need to proselytize. When I asked the guy about what science journals I look up and what medical trials and what type of approval they got, he just went on about testimonies, hey it cures cancer and it cures diabities too don’t you know, don’t know about HIV though, got a feelin’ there’s a shower involved…

31

That’s probably because you are approachable, smart and well presented. These buggers want good reps to sell their pseudo crap.

My SO and I gatecrashed an Amway bash to try and convince our neighbour that she was buying into a Ponzi scheme. Our usually rational neighbour wouldn’t wasn’t rational anymore. Sheeple were everywhere.

Also tried to explain how Amway works to an old school friend who had resigned from her job, start a new business etc. Even mentioned class action suits against Amway etc. It ment nothing to her, and I think she has branded me as a fanatic.

I need to ask her how her new business venture worked out… Might be struck off her email list and get no feedback though.

Live long and don’t be duped.

32

You know, you can very easily show that it’s a pyramid scheme - that whole pipeline business, well that’s just a pyramid turned on its side, it can very easily be shown to be a pyramid if you can show her how she fits in her upline and downlines - that goes for all MLMs, they know people got the pyramid scare, so they just turn it on its side and call it network marketing

33

Yep. We tried all that. Also chatted to the chief honcho. We went back home completely amazed that apparently smart people would fall for this crap, despite pointing out the obvious flaws. Brainwashed

As an aside, we landed up adopting their apparently beloved cat. They visited once and then abandoned a very sweet kitty, despite promising to pay vet bills etc.

These people don’t work from the same moral, decent, fair code.

34

Dead right. They said it was network marketing after we said pyramid scheme. Then there was a long conversion attempt using various tactics and we landed up being classified as being hostile. So we left before any GBH was committed.

Unfortunately the stupid gene is very resilient and will probably never die out.

35

Well it’s more than a so-called stupid gene - the stupid gene is really based on our own desires coupled with wishful thinking, that’s how religion get you sold too - really they basically get people into it by some clever thinking and appealing to your emotional side:

  • They sell a dream (like scams go…)
  • They appeal to you greed
  • They appeal to peoples need to belong

All they have to do is help you rationalise this idea to yourself that there’s a way for you to just create this lovely passive income stream by selling this idea to your friends, yeah appeal to greed and laziness works! And like religion expect you to swallow all this crap without questioning too much, they are prepared for basic questions but always ends up on relying on your emotional state than using your brain

36

Holy shit man I’ve seen where it goes once you’re terminal with cancer and put on morphine… That’s a nightmarish amount of pain those people are in. Go OFF the morphine? Is he nuts?! Those people get to a point they’re in so much pain they can’t move a muscle out of fear, and that’s WHILST TAKING DEBILITATING DOSES OF MORPHINE(!!!).

IOW: That is just sick, beyond immoral, I have no words. WTF is wrong with people… etc.

37

I kid you not BM, I kid you not - he didn’t even blink and worst part is the hubby and his son was both seriously considering this out of sheer desperation - took a bit of fighting to snap them back to reality, fucking hate those bastards, never wanna hear anything mannatech now.

38

A year ago, a beloved family member was diagnosed with cancer. Chemo and radiation didn’t work, but the homeopath across the street interfered with her magic water and supplements. Then followed the reduction of morphine etc. and lots of false hope. She died horribly.

The whole thing was beyond sickening.

39

That is horrible, I think somebody should sue such a person for the pain and suffering they cause with there fake nonesense

40

Surely some of these people need to be taken to court for practising medicine without a license? Yeah, I have no idea how this works, and understand all kinds of “traditional” quackery is allowed in this country, but surely the madness has to stop somewhere?