Below is a link to an interesting video from Penn Jillette, an Atheist in the US. Hope the link works.
Hiya OHA,
There is no doubt that there are a lot of genuinely good people around who happen to be religious. But it is not their faith that make them virtuous, or if it is, it is a false virtuosity, and as such despicable.
Surely its better to help others out of free will than out of fear of punishment?
Take yourself for instance, you appear to be caring, polite, good natured and all that. Would any of those things change if you were to loose your faith for some reason?
Mintaka
Hi Mintaka
I agree that faith does not necessarily make you virtuous. And thank you for the compliments. But my caringness, politeness etc. would do me no good on Judgement day when the Bible says that we are not saved by good works, but by grace (Eph.2:8). It is only Christ’s righteousness that can save me.So, if like you said, I lose my faith for some reason, I would probably be a good person, but one that is without Christ’s righteousness and thus guilty of trangressing His Law. in the words of C.H. Spurgeon “nothing can damn a man but his own righteousness; nothing can save a man but the righteousness of Christ”. Yet God promises to keep those He saves, thus according to His own promises (John10:28-29 etc) I will never lose that which He gave me.
Fear? Sometimes fear can be healthy. It’s out of fear for depraved criminal elements that I won’t just strole through a dark alley in a gangster neighborhood. There are diferent kinds of fear though - a holy fear for God for example that gives me respect for Him, His Laws, a Love that is Holy etc.
God also cares more for the joyous gift (helping others out of free will) than for someone who grudgingly helps, while thinking he does good.
Keep well.
At the risk of pre-empting Mintaka’s no doubt considered reply, that’s not very much unlike saying to a child that he or she needs to behave well at school or else they’ll never get any supper ever again, and never mind how good the marks are that the child achieves because they count for nothing. I think that you’ll agree that the priorities are a bit misaligned and that the threat of not ever getting any supper again is a fundamentally immoral motivator for good behaviour. In fact, it’s no less than pure blackmail.
Note also that here we assume purely for the sake of argument that there will, in fact, be such a day of reckoning, an assumption supported by no credible evidence or reasoning.
'Luthon64
The correct question is: how much do you have to hate someone to constantly try to subvert his mind to your lies and conceited beliefs?
Hi OHA, I curious about some of the things you mentioned.
Firstly, how sure are you that you are reading and getting advice from the right book, considering there are so many out there? What if you have chosen the wrong one? What process did you go through to excluded the other texts? I also know that that book says a lot of other things that I know you choose to ignore; how do you know what bits are the right ones and what bits aren’t?
and
The same questions apply. How did you exclude all the other fellows? I guess if there is really a god and you chose the wrong one, you would be reading and taking advice from the wrong book. What then?
What if it’s a girl? In my experience if you make the mistake of calling someone “sir” when it should be “ma’am”, it gets a little embarrasing.
What if it's a girl? In my experience if you make the mistake of calling someone "sir" when it should be "ma'am", it gets a little embarrasing.
Didn’t you just love Alanis in Dogma? She makes the coolest God 8)!
Mintaka
I think the real issue at hand is that religious people are constantly seeking affirmation for their beliefs. If others believe it or if they can convice someone, it must be true.
That’s why we all believe that the earth is flat, and it was created by God 6000 years ago. There is one thing that God did not create. Dinosour fossils were created by Satan to misguide us. 
I think the real issue at hand is that religious people are constantly seeking affirmation for their beliefs. If others believe it or if they can convice someone, it must be true.
Naturally. They do call it ‘belief’ after all. What is worse is that they know it is bs and they are always keeping their fingers crossed that no-one will figure their insecurity.
;D have you ever seen those cad designs of the ‘giants’ ?
No… would love to though.
@OHA
Of course you should act on your beliefs - and as in the link you provided, sometimes it is heartfelt and with no negative impact on the parties involved. Also it is not necessarily, as Objective implies, done with deceit and/or lies. But even if these actions are done with the best intentions possible, they can still be based on something which is not true.
Religion is not always harmless. Especially if it tries to involve itself with things it has no good reason to mess with. It is religion encroaching on science that I have a problem with. It is people who have no clue how diseases work that tell other people how to live their lives - contradicting experts in the field. These are not harmless actions. And even if it comes with the best possible intentions, it is still ignorant and wrong and therefore should be fought.
OHA, I do not think that your intentions are flawed here, but you have little understanding of the arguments you so readily defend. You are merely parroting flawed arguments from people who show little understanding themselves. If you truly try to find answers for many of the questions you have posted on this forum, you will find that they have been answered before, and that the people perpetuating them are either wilfully ignorant, stupid or deceitful. That is why we will react strongly.
If you can look for answers to these questions with an open mind, you will find more than you expected. And that is something I can respect. Also note that you do not have to turn your back on religion in order to understand science, many scientists still regard themselves as religious. I hope that you will continue your quest for the truth here and elsewhere, if that is what you are looking for. If you came here to convert atheists and make them see the light, you better be able to do more than quote from the bible.
Thank you bluegray V - Will try to keep it all in mind - feel free to remind me when I digress.
To all - keep well.