Noah's Ark

Other Flame Wars
61

author=jhkeet link=topic=733.msg5413#msg5413 date=1251374955]

Um...the question was actually: If you are just a bunch of chemicals and energy, can YOU trust your own thoughts and reasoning? You side-stepped the question

Ag hemel Keet >:(

Are you reaaaaallllly UNable to see the resemblance in your statement/question and that
You can apply the same question to you, created from dust huh??? Don’t type in a bunch
Of nonsense just because you feel the urge to fill an empty space!

BTW - How come, when scientists carbon date biblical cities, everyone accept test results, but when it gets to dinosaur fossils suddenly there is a major conspiracy???

62
:"Where is this God then?". So, for everyone who wants to take God out of everything, great news!!!! He won't be in hell either!

I was wondering when the appeal to hellfire would raise its ugly but predictable head. This normally signals the dawn of a stage where all hope of a reasonable discussion can be abandoned. Don’t loose heart fellow sceptics, the end is in sight! Next, we’ll be assured that we are all being prayed for and that, God willing, will be that. :wink:

Mintaka

63

Well Keetie, I have a distant relation who has a doctorate in microbiology and who was ordained an Anglican minister some time after graduation. Thing is, she doesn’t deny evolution. I wonder why. But you’re lying to us about studying, aren’t you? Or, judging by your “definition” of evolution and all the other BS you’ve posted here, you’re doing first year maybe for the third or fourth time? That goes to the “unspeakable ignorance” bit.

Another thing, those hundreds of thousands of scientists across a wide range of scientific fields and one and a half centuries? Those many people who have studied, prodded and poked the evidence firsthand in every conceivable way and come to similar conclusions? You’re implying they’re all deluded and/or liars. And you say you know what you’re on about because you’re a student. Ho hum, very convincing. That goes to the “shameless presumption” bit.

As for how I can trust my thoughts and reasoning, that’s easy. No god required 'cos most of the time they work just fine. BTW, that would itself be a product of an evolutionary shaping process. Incorrect thought and action reduces survival chances (but obviously not enough in some cases).

And you can keep your non-existent god. He’s worthless dross, a dummy for dummies to suck on.

64

Why does Keetie not read suggested material on evolution? Because doing that takes some actual brain effort. And, 99 cases out of 100, believers are emotionally and mentally incapable of seeing through the BS they’ve been fed since birth. They’ll just make anything up to defend it. Would Keetie be a Christian if his mum wore a burka and his dad a turban? Tragically funny, really.

The only question left to ask here is, “Does it hurt cramming so much stupidity into such a small mind?”

65
Would Keetie be a Christian if his mum wore a burka and his dad a turban? Tragically funny, really.

Thats a brilliant point, and, methinks, the singlemost powerful argument against any religion. So many religions, so little time. Oh, the agony of choice!

Mintaka

66

Not to mention Homer Simpson’s point about seriously pissing off the wrong god.

67

Let’s just piss all of them off and be done with it.

68
The Christians always knew the earth was round, the bible says so (duh, of course it does, maybe it's not out of date?) :"It is He that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth..." Isaiah 40:22

Wait ‘n minute ……did you say duh

I just can’t resist this one ;D

“He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth”
The earth is a flat disc floating on water, that God looks down upon from his throne in heaven.

Keet I’ve got some bible study for you ;)…and if you need some more info please feel free to ask us

Shake the Earth by Its Edges

"take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13)

How could the earth be held by its “edges”? A sphere has no edges. Would the Job author have spoken of “edges” of the earth if he had known the earth was a sphere? Which makes more sense? The author imagined grabbing and shaking by the edges a flat earth, or the author imagined grabbing the ball of the earth by “edges” which don’t exist? Before you answer, consider what else the same author had to say about how the earth is formed:

Stamp Out the Earth Like Clay under A Seal
Clay when stamped with a seal is not rounded into a ball, but flattened, like the clay seal (ca. 3300-3000 BCE) below found in Israel in 1994.1 In the verse below, readers will see that the Job author believes that the earth was stamped out in the manner of clay flattened with a seal:

“The earth takes shape like clay under a seal.” (Job 38:14)
This is the same author who spoke of grabbing the earth by its “edges.” If the Job author had known the earth was round, would he have referred to edges which don’t exist, and would he have compared it to clay seals, which are pressed flat?

Whole Earth Can Be Seen from A Tall Mountain
Other evidence that the Bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages. The first is in Matthew:
“[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them”
(Matthew 4:1-12)
Certainly, if the earth were flat, standing atop “an exceedingly high mountain” would allow Jesus to see the whole earth, but there is no mountain tall enough to allow him to see the other side of a spherical earth. At most, one hemisphere would be seen, but not the other.
Or a Tall-Enough Tree

The other passage is in Daniel:
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)
The “whole” earth? No matter how tall the tree was, even if it was only a dream, it would not have been visible from the other side of the earth.
Hopeful believers in the scientific wisdom found in the Bible ignore the verse above and point to a verse in Isaiah which they think shows that the Bible writers knew the earth was a sphere. They believe that the word “circle” could actually mean “sphere,” since both are round, but they ignore Isaiah’s use of a different word in another verse where he speaks of a “ball.” Here are the two verses:
To whom then will ye liken God? …It is he that sitteth upon the circle (chuwg) of the earth (Isaiah 40:18-23
He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a BALL (duwr) into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord’s house. (Isaiah 22:18)
The Hebrew word used in scripture for “circle” in the verse above is chuwg. If the Bible writer had meant for us to believe that “circle of the earth” meant that the earth was round, the writer would have used the Hebrew word for “ball,” which is duwr. The fact that Isaiah didn’t use duwr shows that he wasn’t trying to tell us the earth was like a ball.
Furthermore, there exists a simple interpretation of “circle of the earth” which does not imply a spherical earth. On a hill overlooking a wide expanse free of tall trees and other hills the horizon appears as a perfect circle, 360 degrees of blue sky. If Isaiah meant to tell us the earth was a globe, he would have used another word. A circle is not a ball, nor is a ball a circle. Everyone knew what a “circle” was in those times; it meant the same then as it means today.

According to the Bible, the Earth has corners and an end:

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

The Earth doesn’t move, according to the Bible:

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.

According to the Bible, the Earth has edges:

“that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (From the NIV Bible, Job 38:13)”

“He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (From the NIV Bible, Job 37:3)”

“for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (From the NIV Bible, Job 28:24)”

“Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea. (From the NIV Bible, Job 11:9)”

According to the often quoted Isaiah 40:22:

“He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 40:22)”

The word they used was ‘hug’ which means circle. A circle is NOT a sphere or a ball or an egg-shaped object. If they meant to say a sphere, they could’ve used the word ‘dur,’ which means ‘ball.’ That passage only talks about the circularity of a flat earth-disc not of a sphere.

So, the Bible not only did NOT show that the Earth was a sphere, ball, or egg-shaped, but it also claimed in several verses that the Earth was flat, that it had edges, four corners, an end, a tent-like sky, foundations, and pillars.

69

Only thing is, the dust in my case didn’t “spontaneously” form out of nothing and then “spontaneously” formed life. God Himself made man from dust.

70

Sorry mintaka, unfortunately my praying ain’t gonna help anyone of you get to heaven. If you ain’t got Jesus, you ain’t going.

71

So I take it you yourself ain’t got much to show then?

72

Would anyone want to serve a “god” that demands all who do not believe in him be killed and are considered infidels? Wow, what a god!

73
Would anyone want to serve a "god" that demands all who do not believe in him be killed and are considered infidels? Wow, what a god!

You mean a god like this?

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches 

You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions 

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God :o

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)


2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

WOOOOOOW WHAT A GOD!!!

74

How would one describe holding a sphere then? Could you maybe tell me? Or is it then impossible to hold one? (BTW the KJV says ends of the earth, not edges. Depending on how you view the sphere you can distinguish its ends, or poles if you’d like, if you imagined an x, y or z axis in a sphere, you definitely can have the ends if the x-, y- or z-axis)

KJV says:“It is turned as clay to the seal…” Don’t know from which new age bible you got that one. But perhaps it might be talking about the surface of the earth? As the earth’s suface does indeed change constantly, like the images a seal forms on clay?

The second and third tempting of the devil is in spirit, as He was firstly taken up into the holy city to be set on the pinnacle of the tempel and was then taken to this exceedingly high mountain.

Can you see that it was a vision? Wonder then how might your dreams and visions be like.(Rather don’t tell)

How would one devide the earth in 4 then?

Well what kind of move is this talking about? Rotational motion? Or maybe movement out of it’s orbit? It would take a great deal to move it up, down , left or right out of it wouldn’t it? Can you make the earth move from it’s position? (Think about it for a while, you really aren’t that big after all hey)

75

What are you doing on 7 September? ;D

76

Yeah Keet and during biblical times they figured there were poles??? If only a few
Hundred years ago, people dared to sail the oceans in fear of dropping of the surface before?

Oh Keet I owe you big time…… I can see clearly now……Since the biblical world
Were created in uuuuhhhm 6 days and all…… their world were only 10 square km’s
Suuuure not problem, get on top of the closest mountain and watch YOUR world.

Horton Hears A Who kinda action, Adam & Eve lived on a speckle …on earth

Don’t worry Keet god loves all and those without insight even better! :wink:

77

But your god did just that, right? I mean spontaneously pulled himself out of nothing. Or maybe from his own ass, even though that holy hole didn’t exist yet?

Thanks Keetie for your brilliant reply. So utterly, stunningly, astonishingly brilliant is it in fact that only a cretinist can figure out how it follows from what I wrote. As a bonus, it doubles as a cool deflection from actually addressing the point and answering the question.

So tell me this, Keetie. You say, and I quote, “I do actually [know what I’m talking about], I’m studying BSc Zoology at the Uiversity [sic] of Pretoria. And unfortunately evolution is also part of my studies (and shoved into my science textbooks) so I get to do quite a bit of reading on the evolution religion.” What do you do come evolution exam time? Do you tell your god’s “truth” about creation and fail the exam, or do you tell what you think are lies to pass the exam?

What Janey said. You do know about the 11th commandment, hey? That’s the one in Exodus 34:26 that tells you to give your first annual fruit harvest to the church and forbids you from boiling a kid goat in his mother’s milk.

78

Hi jhkeet,

You asked about transitional forms illustrating a single- to multicellular arrangement. Have you considered Volvox? It is a colony of specialized cells, and good fun to watch under a microscope.

Mintaka

79

Thanks for the link. I have seen this organism under the mic myself and have studied it and think it’s a fascinating organism. This is an organism consisting of about 50 000 cells and in some species can even be unicellular. Just that being said, the questions arise:‘How come there are unicellular species still living?’ , “From who did they then evolve if they are already unicellular?” and ‘If the the multicellular one evolved from the sinlge celled one, why is it still a Volvox and not something else?’ . The site also says they evolved at least 200mya, why haven’t they evolved much further then?

The question still remains: 'Where are all the rest of the transitional forms and fossils?". There should be many millions of them.

80
The site also says they evolved at least 200mya, why haven't they evolved much further then?

Simple, there has been no pressure for them to change.

Seriously, you need millions to convince you? Here is alot: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates
But even if we could you show you millions of transitional fossils, I doubt you would be convinced.

Also, a fossil being formed is a relatively minor occurrence. A lot of things need to happen before a fossil is formed. There exists a lot of fossils yes, but that is because there has been a LOT of organisims living since the start. Even a 1 in a million chance happens 1 in a million times.