Transgender

Other Flame Wars
1
With all the homophobic and transphobic bullying of school children leading to deaths and suicides in the international news lately

This is a whoole thread by itself. Lots of people get bullied, the chess team, the ugly kids, the poor kids, the kids who get bullied and then bully other other kids. The kids who bully probably get bullied by a parent. It’s something that happens to everyone at some stage. I thought these people want to be equal? Or am I misreading it as “people with special status above those meany straights”?

, one would expect people who supposedly keep their eyes on the news to display a little more savvy when making such patently stupid and bigoted remarks.

One would expect someone with a rational, coherent, and valid argument wouldn’t devolve into the same kind of bullying they’re railing against. (Yes, calling someone stupid is bullying). Slinging personal insults at an opponent in a debate does not further any rational point, it alienates the person you’re trying to convince, it is rude, uncivil, and suggests that your argument is weak. Don’t do it.

2

Christina, what are your thoughts on transgender males (meaning individuals born male but viewing themselves as female) wishing to compete in female athletics? Should they be allowed to do so, and on what grounds?

Mintaka

3

Having read Tina’s website I reckon I am not in a position to comment on transgenderism (or even without reading it) and would urge those of you interested enough to read it for some context and background. Having said that, it doesn’t justify insults and flame wars; I must empathize with any person who is born this way, having to go through all the shit the world throws at you; indeed it underlines that no god exists and also accentuates how far man must still go to learn to accept people like this without being judgmental.
@Tina, while I think I understand where you are coming from, your approach will not endear you or those you are batting for with the rest of us. Your frustration and anger is evident and so is our ignorance in most instances: the structure of society along gender lines has historically made no provision for intersex, trangender, gays etc and what we are seeing today is painful process for those affected and a massive learning process for us so-called ‘normal’ persons

4

@ Hermes: Firstly, here are some links to demonstrate my point on medical proof:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2009/12/11/gene-discovery-could-make-gender-reassignment-easier/ Gene discovery could make gender reassignment easier

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050511_transfrm.htm Preliminary work, genetic link found in transexuality

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm BBC NEWS Health Scans see ‘gay brain differences’

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm Swedish study brain symetry GLBT

http://www.bbc.co.uk/surgery/body_mind/everyone/gender_dysphoria_transgender/ what is transgenderism?

(In the case of the brain symmetry and genetic code, it seems obvious that it is more than just a matter of personality, but also there would be an overlap onto the physical characteristics of transgender people.)

I am sorry to say I found no empathy in your earlier post, hence my reply. And I did not lie - I was at a loss for words - and so that was my polite response.

Being classified as transgender by its nature implies that transition is required - denial of that fact denies the transgender person’s existence and right to express themselves in their true gender. In the case of a transvestite on the other hand, it is a case of sexual fetish, and not gender identity - and no transition is required. Perhaps you have confused the two?

Your reference to “age of consent to sexual relations” is irrelevant as sexual relations have nothing to do with gender identity. Gender is an intrinsic part of who we are, even babies express their gender identity. Therefore, gender issues should not be taken as “whims”, nor enforced as rigid rules of state, but that’s just my little opinion, having survived my upbringing on the receiving end of such things.

Your argument of “boys remaining among boys” indicates that you are in favor of enforcing a system which forces gender roles on people, even when it is obvious that they do not identify as the gender a short-sighted society wishes to force on them. That is not empathic. When an individual can be diagnosed as transgender, at whatever age, the process should be the same - placing the needs of the individual first. What harm would it do to accommodate a transgender child? What kind of world are you building where there is no tolerance of diversity? Transgender people exist, they always have, they always will. We are a fact of life. Being exposed to this fact will not suddenly “infect” all the other children in their environment. Smothering transgender children will not ensure that they do not exist.

No, I don’t think children should transition too early - at least as far as hormonal or surgical interventions are concerned, but many children are already very mature for their age - and I have to say that I knew what I wanted - and I was sure - even when I was as young as 12. The youngest complete transition on record currently is 15, in Germany, a very advanced circumstance where the girl’s parents gave their full support, and with complete success. I also hold the opinion that if I had grown up during a more tolerant time, I would have come out at a young age, and not suppressed myself for so long in an attempt to “fit in” - and wasted so many years of my life living a lie.

And lastly, I made no assumptions - I worked with your own words and they told me all I needed to know.

@ Boogiemonster: Do children commit suicide for being bullied over wearing glasses or being on the chess team? Or does it happen because they get beaten up repeatedly for being effeminate? Funny thing, last year there were two incidents in the US where boys killed themselves over homophobic bullying - and they weren’t even gay. Go figure.

Your notion of equality is sadly lacking.

@ Mintaka: Firstly just a slight correction :wink: - a transgender male (transman) is a male who is transitioning or has transitioned from female to male. A transgender female (transwoman) is a female who is transitioning or has transitioned from male to female. similarly, trans people prefer to be addressed in the gender they present as - so if you’re a traffic cop and the person whose ID book you’re looking at appears female and you call them “sir”, don’t think you’re doing them a favor.

to answer your question, I believe that athletes who have transitioned should be treated equally with cis-gender people. For instance, in the case of a female who used to be male, after hormone replacement therapy (especially in the case of early/young transition) there is no significant advantage over other females in terms of physical strength. The same principle should apply in the case of a male who used to be female.

@ Brian: Yes, every time I see callous remarks and people struggling with a lack of knowledge and prejudice resulting from this lack, it frustrates me. Thank you for your kind words and your insight.

I am open to questions should anyone wish to learn more about transgender issues.

C

5
Do children commit suicide for being bullied over wearing glasses or being on the chess team?

In my area growing up there were two teenage suicides unrelated to sexuality. So yes. Sometimes some people can’t handle it and they kill themselves. Two suicides in a population of 300 million is barely a blip. The real news is that they had alternate lifestyle choices and a big deal was made out of them because of that. Just a super-quick google gives me this:

For every older teen and young adult who takes his or her own life, 100-200 of their peers attempts suicide. Between 500,000 and 1 million young people attempt suicide each year. (BM: Seems to be stats for the USA only)

2 people in that population? It would seem (yes a very casual glance, I’m exaggerating) the alternate lifestyle folks are doing better than the mainstreamers. I wouldn’t find that surprising, these are people that are usually bold enough to live out their true personalities regardless of what those around them think. (Or at least try to, or yearn to)

DO NOT misconstrue my tone and comments. I believe in equality for everyone, and anybody’s life choice is their own. I don’t care personally. I will however speak up when I think facts are being bent.

6

“alternate lifestyle choices”?

Hmmm - so you think being transgender is an “alternate lifestyle choice”?

Btw - that kid who was asked to leave the school (or expelled) for wearing trousers is one example of how difficult the rule-makers make life for others? And tell me something else - is saving those two lives (you called them blips) not worth a little effort?

7
Hmmm - so you think being transgender is an "alternate lifestyle choice"?

You don’t seem to indicate which part you have a problem with. I’m guessing choice. It’s just a term I hoped would not cause offense, I was wrong, perhaps I should give up and just use common street lingo, since you’re already hell bent on being offended. Cool with that?

And tell me something else - is saving those two lives (you called them blips) not worth a little effort?

Well you don’t seem too concerned about the other 500,000 to 1 million children killing themselves, only those two. Pot, meet kettle. You focus in on a tiny portion of a huge problem and try to make that part more important than the rest. Moreover you want to portray me as “not caring” about the problem at all, when in fact I atleast acknowledge the full extent of the problem. My point is not “oh sure let the children die”, implying that is to set up a straw man argument. My POINT is, if everyone is equal, the causes of ALL suicides (perhaps including bullying, but imho most people survive bullying just fine, bullying probably exacerbates or combines with other problems - I think this remains to be determined, feel free to educate me with scientific evidence) can be dealt with uniformly and effectively instead of pretending the problem is unique to transsexuals only, and then pleading for special treatment and calling it equality.

In that case discovering the truth and addressing it (if possible) would save countless MORE lives, probably including the 2 lives you care more about.

8

Christina,
My original posting on this thread in fact started with the words “Empathy aside,” clearly indicating that I have empathy with this topic, but that what was about to follow would not concentrate on that aspect of transgender pupils. The irony of this whole tirade is that I agree with most of your sentiments, but I do not agree that transgender school children should embark on a sexual transition programme while they are still at school.
Thank you for the five references. Extensive research has been done into the origins of sexual orientation and the nature versus nurture debate remains somewhat inconclusive. Personally I am inclined to share your view that it is mainly of genetic origin. Either way it is a reality and needs to be dealt with. By no means do I suggest that sexual orientation is a whim or preference; insisting on cross dressing at school is a different kettle of fish. To insist that your personality determines your true gender is semantic trickery with no scientific basis, and none of the five sources you quoted above refutes this.
Ironically, the last of your five references in fact suggests that a gender transition programme would usually not go beyond stage one (living as a member of the opposite sex for one year) before the age of 18. That is school leaving age, which supports my view.
You apparently misinterpreted my comment on the age of consent to sexual intercourse. All I stated was that if you are regarded as too immature to make a decision on sexual intercourse, how can you then be regarded as mature enough to make a substantially more far-reaching decision on gender transition?
The practical implications of our public school system accommodating pupils living as the opposite sex, is complex. There are school hostels where children share dormitories and communal showers. There are sports for which gender is a determining factor in team selection. There are school excursions on which children share accommodation. There are schools dedicated to boys or girls only. As it is, our school system suffers under severe lack of classrooms, qualified teachers, school books and basic management. Not only is it questionable whether our public school system can accommodate it, but would the transgender child really be better off if excluded from all these activities or facilities? “Boys remaining among boys” is therefore not the shortsighted enforcement of a gender role, but the physical reality of the sex with which they were born.
Nature endows us with a bag of talents and challenges and we have to make the best of those attributes. Liberal society holds the admirable view that we should not discriminate against anyone on the grounds of these attributes and that all people should be treated equally. In some cases special effort to facilitate challenged people is appropriate. Even so, society can often not fully compensate challenged people to the extent that their standard of living equates that of people without those challenges. This calls for realism and adaptability on the part of challenged people. In the case of transgender pupils it would be more appropriate to remain within their own physical sexual group until they have complete school, even though it may cause some sacrifice in the meantime.

9

@ Boogiemonster:

“Well you don’t seem too concerned about the other 500,000 to 1 million children killing themselves, only those two.”

The issue is the two “blips” as you call them - and that you made them out to be insignificant. Don’t try to pass the buck.

Yes, I get your point - society should set the rules to suit the majority, to hell with the minorities and too bad if the one or two trans kids can’t handle it and off themselves - it’s their own fault for not being able to take the pressure. Does that some it up?

Perhaps instead of comparing oranges and apples and considering the one or two kids “weak” for not being able to handle a “little” bullying, you should consider that some instances of bullying are worse than others.

Oooh here we go with the “special treatment” issue :wink: Lovely. You will find that there are more groups out there than just transsexual or transgender people who have unique needs in terms of social interaction. Unfortunately in a diverse population, it is close to impossible to create a uniform yet restrictive system that caters to everybody’s needs. In most cases someone will get left out or disadvantaged while the majority blissfully and naively thinks everything is hunky-dory and those who are left out are “just being silly” or looking for “special treatment in the name of equality”. Perhaps we should scrap all those pointless entrance ramps for buildings and tell people in wheel chairs and on crutches to just “suck it up” and to stop expecting “special treatment”?

You want to know what will save more than the two lives you keep whinging about me be concerned about? Solve the problem of ignorance and prejudice. In short, educate people to stop being so selfish and to consider that everybody is entitled to be happy and that enforcing silly little rules about who people are allowed to be, how they are allowed to express themselves, who they are allowed to love or what they are allowed to believe in - and you will have a good start.

@ Hermes:

Okay, let’s discuss this rationally. I don’t know you and I have no desire to keep a long term fight on the go.

On the issue on school leaving age and age of consent: In most cases where children transition, parents give consent for medical treatment - yet even so, some schools persist in rejecting such children - all in the name of worrying about their image and because the child will wear clothing of their true gender. I think such schools have lost perspective of what really matters - the welfare of the child.

As I said earlier, I knew what I was when I was twelve but it’s different for all of us. Some can “tough it out” for longer. Some can’t. Some know from an early age already and I have to say if somebody knows they are female and wants to be able to live like a female, then why should they be forced to live like a male? I have a friend who started living as a girl at 9 already, although she went to primary school as a boy, and then to her high school as a girl. She had her surgery at 17, and that was back in the 1980’s. On the other hand, I struggled with my identity right through school and even through the army before I eventually embraced my nature and began transition. I would give anything to have been able to transition when I was 17. Many children get into trouble because of emotional pain, getting into all kinds of things because of issues like not being able to live their lives - surely you can see that all that could be avoided if such restrictive measures were not forcibly applied?

I understand what you’re saying about mixing children of different sexes together etc, but I’d like to point out that we are talking about around 1 percent of the total population here. Statistics point out that about one in a million people is transgender. And of course there are measures that can be taken - for instance, the child can change in a cubicle (as I did in the ladies gym for years before my surgery - and I can assure you, any more than they may not have wanted to see me naked, I certainly did not want them to see me naked either).

As always this topic seems to come down to sex and the modern Western obsession with it. Heaven forbid that children should see each other naked or even think about sex. Did you know for instance, that up to about 300 years ago public baths and such were not segregated? That’s right - there was no concern about ‘modesty’ and so on - all that was a relatively recent invention that came in with the Victorians who were notoriously puritanical and too afraid to see themselves naked in case they be tempted into thinking sinful thoughts. Recently there has been a return to the old convention with the advent of the “Unisex washroom” where both sexes go to do their business - but instead of standing at a trough swinging their genitals around in public, people use the cubicles. And showers come in cubicles too :wink:

10

christina, i think you need to calm down. you are not likely to find a more open-minded and accepting bunch of people outside of the gay community here.
the majority of people here deal in facts, if you cant give them cold, hard, scientific facts, then you are going to end-up in flame wars gaurinteed.
i really dont believe there are clear-cut little boxes one can put each LGBTI person into. each has their own degree of inclinations and needs. and while, you, personally, might feel that you were born male, but experience yourself as female, there might be naturally born male, that feel very feminine, but prefers to be seen as male. it is very much of a personal choice. some, like you, prefer to become female in totality, but at the end of the day, your body will forever need hormones to stay ‘female’. its unfortunate that you have been dealt a double deal like this. but you have been able to bridge your condition.
dont be offended by use of technical language, nobody is here to coddle. by referring to an intersexed child at ‘it’, is easier than saying he/she every time. dont be so touchy.
allso, dont just throw links at us, nobody has got time to access them all.

11

Seconded. Emotionality undermines your arguments.

'Luthon64

12
"Well you don't seem too concerned about the other 500,000 to 1 million children killing themselves, only those two."

The issue is the two “blips” as you call them - and that you made them out to be insignificant. Don’t try to pass the buck.

My reply states explicitly that those people should be helped too, but that the solution may be the same. You do not, by accusing me of being unconcerned with 2 suicides, provide a counterpoint to that at all. Why do you believe that THESE TWO suicides were not caused by the same kind of emotional and environmental problems as any of the others? Please read what I write, and yes you just also “passed the buck” quite effectively in NOT answering that point (The one I already answered a reply ago…). Once again, Pot, Kettle… Where is your concern for thousands of straight people who die in exactly the same way?

Yes, I get your point - society should set the rules to suit the majority, to hell with the minorities and too bad if the one or two trans kids can't handle it and off themselves - it's their own fault for not being able to take the pressure. Does that some it up?

Did you even read my link about the straw man fallacy? Here it is again for completeness:

No, that is not what I said. Putting words in my mouth is also NOT an argument. Read what I said, and try to comprehend it. Maybe I’ll put it this way: I’m a minority too. I’m an Afrikaans Atheist, do you really think I’ll stand behind the statement “We must only cater to the majority”? Once again and maybe you’ll do it: Read about the straw man argument and don’t put words in my mouth. My point is you haven’t shown how these two suicides were any different to the millions of others out there. If your point is that the transsexuals were “more tortured” than the other people who willingly killed themselves, I’d say you’re full of shit. People don’t just off themselves because they feel blue, I think we can agree it takes an intense amount of emotional distress…

Perhaps instead of comparing oranges and apples and considering the one or two kids "weak" for not being able to handle a "little" bullying, you should consider that some instances of bullying are worse than others.

Like you try to imply here… “The transexuals who killed themselves were more emotionally hurt than the straights who also killed themselves…”. What the hell?

(snip emotional bullshit) You will find that there are more groups out there than just transsexual or transgender people who have unique needs in terms of social interaction. Unfortunately in a diverse population, it is close to impossible to create a uniform yet restrictive system that caters to everybody's needs.

Restrictive system?! Is this 1984? I would never restrict people rights to freedom of speech. My take on this would be to TEACH PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH OR IGNORE mean people. Look, you can regulate and legislate and prescribe all day long for the rest of time, somewhere, somehow, someone is going to do the exact opposite. And if you haven’t taught the individual who has to deal with it, HOW deal with it, they’ll be without any defense mechanism and be completely unable to handle it.

In most cases someone will get left out or disadvantaged while the majority blissfully and naively thinks everything is hunky-dory and those who are left out are "just being silly" or looking for "special treatment in the name of equality". Perhaps we should scrap all those pointless entrance ramps for buildings and tell people in wheel chairs and on crutches to just "suck it up" and to stop expecting "special treatment"?

Are you always completely hysterical? Yeah I totally said all those things. ::slight_smile: Please, quote me, exactly, verbatim, where I said anything of the kind. Perhaps the idea is that the kids from Soweto who have broken legs need crutches just as much as the kids from Sandton who have broken legs. They don’t need different crutches, more affirmative crutches. They just plain need crutches because a broken leg in a kid from soweto is the same as a broken leg in a kid from anywhere else. The fact that he’s in soweto has nothing to do with what he needs to treat that problem.

The fact is, you tried to justify that there is a trend of transgender suicides by identifying 2 cases in a million. That is not a trend. That is a blip, it’s not even statistically significant, in a lab it would be considered experimental noise. 2 out of a million is NO basis to build claims of a “trend” of a certain group committing suicide. I’m sure blacks, atheists, mexicans, midgets, albino’s, people named “Paul”, gingers, fat kids, aspies, and just plain goths; are more represented in that sample. Why? Because all kinds of people have shitty lives and considder suicide. Rich, poor, majority, minority, doesn’t matter.

.... enforcing silly little rules about who people are allowed to be, how they are allowed to express themselves, who they are allowed to love or what they are allowed to believe in -

Why pinch me but, you were just suggesting the EXACT opposite in this very post!

13

Wow, this turned into an interesting thread. First of all C, chill, nobody here has any issue with “minorities” of any kind, we, ourselves fall into that category, and we are VERY aware of it which makes us a tad more sympathetic to others. We’re generally very much a “whatever floats your boat” kind of crowd.

GCG is openly Bi, and very involved in the gay community (go check out some of her threads), and as she has said, the majority of us here are a logical lot, emotions are secondary to facts, so try to keep your emotions at arms length, we dont want a flame war, because you can teach here, and you’ll have an attentive audience if you can answer the questions without upsetting yourself.

As for “lifestyle choice” - I’m not sure who bought it up and I’m too lazy to go check - there is choice involved, not choice as to your gender or sexual preference, but the choice to live your lifestyle, I do admire both of my trans/gay friens (I happen to have one of each and they are dear to me), it rings a chord with me, to be open about who you are in the face of such resistance from the ignorant and conservative takes guts, and its not an easy road to take.

We all have a story, go trawl the threads here, and you’ll find each one of us are facing our own demons on a daily basis. Which is why this forum (to me at least) is such a blessing - an escape to people who have similar viewpoints and feelings - they dont care a hoot about my issues, because its very similar to their own.

mommy mode off

14

@ GGG:

On the contrary, I am quite calm :wink: At the time of the first post I made I was a little hot under the collar, I admit.

“at the end of the day, your body will forever need hormones to stay ‘female’.” - Um, no. Boobs don’t disappear if you stop hormones - and altered body parts don’t suddenly “grow back”. If you choose to continue hormones after initial feminization/masculinization and surgery it is for reasons of health - in order to prevent the onset of premature aging, heart disease, various cancers, and osteoporosis.

And why the ‘’ around female? I’m sorry if you think I’m “touchy”. It may seem like nit-picking to you, but these all seem like a lack of acceptance of trans people in their true gender to me. It might of course just be a lack of understanding, but here we are.

“dont just throw links at us, nobody has got time to access them all.” The links are there for you to read up and get educated on the topic. If you have time to post here then you have time to read. What does it say about people who are offered facts and enlightenment, and make excuses to not make use of it? 'Nuff said. And no, I’m still quite calm :wink:

@ Mefiante:

The facts presented in my argument thus far stand, regardless of how you may try to paint me as being “emotional” or even hysterical.

@ Boogiemonster:

You seem obsessed with pots and kettles…

I’ve heard of the strawman theory… perhaps next you are going to ask me how to bake a zinkeldok?

What we have here appears to be a failure to communicate. Either both of us are not saying what we mean, or neither of us is interpreting the other’s words correctly.

Firstly - “The transexuals who killed themselves were more emotionally hurt than the straights who also killed themselves…”. I NEVER SAID THAT. What I said was “some instances of bullying are worse than others.” - meaning that there is a difference between someone being picked on with name-calling and a little prank or two - and getting beaten up on the playground or after school on a daily basis. I should think that is self-explanatory, regardless of who the victim is.

Second - “Restrictive system?! Is this 1984? I would never restrict people rights to freedom of speech.” - Where a child or individual is forced into a mold that goes against their nature in such a way as to degrade their sense of self-worth I would call it restrictive. A girl being forced to wear boys clothes and to be segregated and treated like a boy, or punished for effeminate behavior is an apt example. I would say this doesn’t fall under the right to freedom of speech, but under freedom of expression, and the right to dignity. Btw, have you actually read 1984?

Oh and by the way - the comment of “special treatment” was made by boogiemonster. You are Boogiemonster, aren’t you? You did say “…instead of pretending the problem is unique to transsexuals only, and then pleading for special treatment and calling it equality.” Oops.

I never tried to make a case that there is a trend of transgender suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying. What I did was indicate that there IS a trend of LGBTI suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying. There is no denying that. As a minor detail, the “t” in LGBTI stands for transgender.

I also tried to point out to you, apparently without success, that even if it is only two incidents of transgender suicide per year, they are every bit as significant as the others - and that it is still worth the effort to take steps to prevent these deaths.

“Why pinch me but, you were just suggesting the EXACT opposite in this very post!” - PINCH. Hello pot, this is the kettle calling :wink:

@ Faerie:

Why does everyone assume that I’m emotional? Hysterical? I’m perfectly calm, I assure you. If I were emotional it would be anger - and it would be because of the astounding level of ignorance present here. My desire is to set the record straight and to educate those who appear to be sorely in need of it, and making stupid remarks out of that lack of education.

“Lifestyle choice” - what exactly do you understand by the word lifestyle? Is it a lifestyle to be straight or cisgender? Or is it nature? Is it really a choice to accept what you are and have no control over being? What kind of choice is that? If you are told you have cancer and you choose to deny it, will you still die from that cancer? Or will you miraculously somehow be made cancer-free because of your denial? Well, I can tell you the odds on that one. :wink:

Let me ask you - do you live a straight lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? Did you make a conscious choice to be a straight masculine man or straight feminine woman? Or were you always just that way? Do you see the point I am trying to make?

Could you enlighten me as to what a transgender lifestyle is? What is a “gay lifestyle” - or a “straight lifestyle” for that matter? I’ve been this way all my life and I have to say, I don’t have a clue.

You probably didn’t realize it before, but can you see now why the term “lifestyle choice” is derogatory to the circumstances of Pink folks? Can you understand now why we see it as a slap in the face?

And no, I am not hysterical, I am quite calm - in fact I’m sitting here sipping a glass of fresh orange juice. :wink:

You’re right, it’s not an easy road to take, especially when you realize there is no other road to take that doesn’t lead to a cliff-top, you have no map, no compass, and there is no way back.

Blessings,

Christina

15
Blessings
??? @ Christine: Someone on this thread said you are woo...if so can you explain why god/jebus/FSM 'created' LGBTI persons and then call them and their existence an abomination (to freely misquote the ultimate book of fairy tales)? If not, ignore my question.
16

I’m obsessed with factual reasoning.

What we have here appears to be a failure to communicate.

No shit.

Firstly - "The transexuals who killed themselves were more emotionally hurt than the straights who also killed themselves....". I NEVER SAID THAT.

Yeah hence I explicitly used the word “imply”. You keep banging on about the bullying of those two pupils being “worse” than anyone else’s bullying. However the result is the same hence you fail to make your point using anything other than special pleading. Facts, please, that can be backed up.

What I said was "some instances of bullying are worse than others." - meaning that there is a difference between someone being picked on with name-calling and a little prank or two - and getting beaten up on the playground or after school on a daily basis. I should think that is self-explanatory, regardless of who the victim is.

That’s my point. Regardless of who the victim is, the problem is the same, and the solution is probably also the same.

Second - "Restrictive system?! Is this 1984? I would never restrict people rights to freedom of speech." - Where a child or individual is forced into a mold that goes against their nature in such a way as to degrade their sense of self-worth I would call it restrictive.

I would too, I’ve stated that early on. I respect people who live out “who they are” irrespective of what others think. Notice I say “irrespective”, not “we should force them to think differently”. Hence thought crime, hence 1984, which I’ve read, Animal Farm too, and not because they were prescribed in school, because for me it wasn’t. I read it voluntarily as an adult.

Oh and by the way - the comment of "special treatment" was made by boogiemonster. You are Boogiemonster, aren't you? You did say "...instead of pretending the problem is unique to transsexuals only, and then pleading for special treatment and calling it equality." Oops.

Yes I did and you have not given me anything other than emotional appeals to change my opinion. Note though, I set MYSELF up in making that argument completely ignorant of the actual picture. I AM here to learn new things. I even admitted my argument was weak by qualifying my statements more than once… The idea was for you to at least try and form a solid rationale of WHY you think so. You could’ve googled some more stats, you could’ve showed me studies and reports, psychological trends, or even a significantly higher percentage of teen suicide linked to sexuality. I have NO idea what that % is, you want to argue it based on a very weak stat, but it MAY be very high… but we don’t know… do we?

However you didn’t. You gave me emotional appeals… for special treatment of these individuals, because they happen to fall into a category you particularly sympathize with. I even admitted right up front that my argument is weak, to probe you to prove me wrong. You didn’t. Wanna try again? I WANT to know. Do you?

I never tried to make a case that there is a trend of transgender suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying. What I did was indicate that there IS a trend of LGBTI suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying.

You did NOTHING to prove it, hence in my mind, you did try, and you have failed (so far, but I await a second swing at it). I can state some facts too: “The sky is purple and there are unicorns on rainbows. FACT!”

What? You have a PROBLEM with a purple sky and RAINBOWS?! What kind of a sick twisted person ARE YOU?! You ignorant stupid person you! Those are facts and that’s that, if you don’t understand the purple sky and unicorn theory then you are obviously a bad person! - That’s how you come across for me. I have nothing but sympathy for alphabet soup people, but seriously, you don’t do the case much good arguing the way you do.

There is no denying that.

I deny it on the grounds that you make a shitty argument.

17

i get the feeling, that christina, you are here to prove a point. okay fine. we geddit. you had a kak childhood, and you are desperate to spread the word for the transgendered community. that’s admirable. i too, have been guilty of waving a banner frantically around here, for the gay cause, or conspiracy theories, or whatever.
but you seem to allmost have decided we are a bunch of ignorant gits, and we are predisposed to discrimination.
personally, i am of the mind, that nobody deserves special treatment. no matter if you gay, straight, from mars… and by that i mean, special treatment: in the positive, like a LGBTI affirmative action thing, or in the negative, like bullying.
kids will torment and bully anybody that gives them a gap, transgendered, big eared, red headed… its society that teaches them to discriminate.
i am a huge defender of gay rights, but you seem to think that transgender doesnt fall under homosexuality. or maybe in all the gesticulating, i lost the message, i dont know. you said something, that transgender doesnt get recognised as a gender. ehm, okay.

Definition of Trans- From the Latin meaning "across, over, or beyond
so, if you call yourself transgender, you then say, you are beyond gender. could easily then say, you are without gender. OR encompass all genders. in native american cultures (before the west came along), some tribes honoured the transgendered and intersexed as shamans, since they are a bridge between the male and female. and gay men would shack up with warriors as their 'wives'. it was nothing weird.

and may i add something you might not like to hear. its religion that dictates how society operates. the bible teaches the white south african, that gay is wrong, homos are to be stoned. and yet, a huge amount of the gay community still cling to god’s pant hems. i understand the fear of death crosses sexual preferance, but why claim ownership to a god that obviously think you are to be murdered on site? do you think the pope would bless you, knowing what you are? do you think a church would marry you?

i bet you money, that if there was a society without religion meddling in it, changing your sex would be about as outrageous as dying your hair pink. you can thank your beloved all powerfull god and his cronies for your battle for acceptance.

while none of us here are transgendered (that i know of), we are accepting of whatever choices our members make. and while we still battle the crap that was pumped into our heads from parents and school, we actively try to break the barriers of church, society and narrowmindedness.

with that in mind, i would ask, for you not be so combatative. you will only find a big-ass wall to face, and your idea of educating us, will get lost in mud-slinging, and end up in flame wars, where i will gladly join in.

18

sigh

Please read in context:

As for "lifestyle choice" - I'm not sure who bought it up and I'm too lazy to go check - there is choice involved, not choice as to your gender or sexual preference, but the choice to live your lifestyle,

MEANING: That you didnt go out to marry a woman and lived a FALSE life, but chose to live YOUR life regardless of what others said. If you’re unable to note the COMPLIMENT handed to you, then you’re really arent worth conversing with

Lifestyle choice is derogatory but being called Pink is not?

You’re full of shit and wrapped up in your own little pink world. Not worth the effort.

19

BAZINGA! ;D

20

I’m not trying to paint you anything. After all, you’re the one with the brush, paint tin and the wild strokes. I merely pointed out that emotionality undermines your argument, which it does, the above-cited overreaction being a case in point. Perhaps I should have qualified it with “… or even just the appearance of emotionality…,” a strong impression with which I am quite clearly not alone.

'Luthon64