Which one is more scientific: Allopathy or Homeopathy?

In allopathy, new medicines (sources are mostly chemical/synthetic) are constantly being created, tested in test-tubes, sick persons, or animals (rats), and going in and out of market every few years once their side effects (typical examples are of steroids, antibiotics, hormones) become obvious to the general public. How many allopathic drugs of yesterday can be found on the chemists’ shelves today? They all had their day, and their alluring names have faded into oblivion (because they are declared ineffective or dangerous), only to be replaced by newer drugs.

Homeopathic medicines (prepared from many natural substances such as herbs and minerals) used in the times of Dr. S. Hahnemann (200 yrs back) are used even today because of their efficacy. They have been tried and tested on healthy human beings. They are known, trusted, and reliable.

So, which one is more scientific by your reckoning?

'Luthon64

Happy Birthday to Nelson Mandela

Happy Birthday? I am sure you can answer the question better than that, can’t you? We are all waiting…

Chicken and vegetable soup (prepared from many natural substances such as herbs and minerals) used in the times of Dr. S. Hahnemann (200 yrs back) are used even today because of their efficacy. They have been tried and tested on healthy human beings. They are known, trusted, and reliable.
:stuck_out_tongue:

Honestly, is this your best argument? Come on, I’m sure you and the other homeopathic “Drs.” can do better than this. Do you need another 200 years?

Obviously Homeopathy

In answer to the question which Dr. Nancy Malik stated at the beginning; “Which one is more scientific: Allopathy or Homeopathy?” I think that the answer lies in Moonflake’s article about homoeopathy.

The answer is neither. Modern (or conventional) medicine is not allopathy (at least it is not the allopathy which Dr. Hahnemann identified). The label which Hahnemann introduced was to highlight the difference between the medical theory of his day (which was about the balancing of humors) and his new medical hypothesis. Modern medicine has nothing to do with the balancing of humors. Homoeopaths today who label all non-homoeopathic medicine as “allopathy” are introducing a kind of false dichotomy and, as Moonflake pointed-out, it only reveals their ignorance of their own history.

Ironically, Dr. Nancy posted a comment immediately after Moonflake’s blog post (having obviously not read the post) further indicating ignorance by labeling modern medicine as “CAM”.

But I hear some of you complaining about the difference between original use of a word and commonly accepted use of the same word, and yes, it’s true that the current common understanding of the word is that “allopathic = non-homoeopathic”. Consider that re-hydration is a form of medical treatment for dehydration which is (strictly speaking) not homoeopathic, it was not discovered by homoeopaths and it is against the principle of “like cures like”. The homoeopath may argue that the most effective treatment for dehydration is salt in homeopathic dilution, but this too is false; the most effective treatment is a carefully balanced solution of electrolytes in water which is more readily absorbed by the body. Could this be labeled allopathy? Yes. Would Homoeopaths turn their back on this form of treatment?

I’d like to protest against the orginal thread title. Pointless, I know but I agree with Moonflake that it shows a lack of understanding of the history of the debate and at the very least perpetautes the distortion of the term “allopathy”. Half-heatedly, of course, I just wanted a bit of attention really. :smiley:

Anyway, I see that you have returned Dr. Nancy (that prompted a hasty rewriting of this post - deleting so much speculation). I’m glad to see that you are back to answer your critics, however the post that you have left does not help in the slightest to enlighten us about in what way homoeopathy is scientific. I do appreciate that it must have taken a huge amount of self control not to add the statement “because I said so”, but the answer you have provided is a conclusion from absolutely no premises. Drawing a conclusion from no premises and no logical deductions of those premises allows all kinds of entertaining arguments (“Is the moon orbiting the Earth? … TEA CUP!!”) but they are equally useless. Where is the evidence of your position? We will not accept the linking to all sorts of diverse conspiracy theories about “Big Pharma” as evidence in the case of this particular discussion. Note that proving conventional medicine as being unscientific (should you choose that route) will not automatically make homoeopathy scientific (there’s that false dichotomy again).

If homoeopathy is scientific then it must follow the scientific method. That’s a massive hint. Prove to us that homoeopathy follows the scientific method, it’s the first step in constructing a logical argument. Then enlighten us about what else would be required to consider homoeopathy scientific. And finally once we have all accepted that homoeopathy is scientific (and because I assume you are looking for an “exclusive or” type of answer to your question here) go on to prove that modern medicine is not scientific.

Good post, AAH, but largely lost on its most important target, I fear. A brief review of Dr. Nancy Malik’s output should make it clear that she’s not here to debate; she’s here to pontificate, her religion being homoeopathy.

How is that “obvious” from the scant-to-non-existent material you have provided?

'Luthon64

Not pointless at all. In fact you make your point very adequately. Nancy’s insistent use of the misapplied term allopathy for conventional medicine has bugged me from the start, but in this case, I quite enjoy the irony of the title - even though I’m pretty sure it was not intended. :wink:

Allo means opposite. Conventional medicine nature is opposite to the disease nature that is to suppress the diase furhter deeper in to the body. Homeopathy is based on likes cures like. You may not like the word but you can not ignore the fact.

Would you define for us what is science?

How scientific it is, see for yourself: http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/68065/?page=entire

There are many examples of conventional medication which is not “opposite” to the “disease nature”. One example would be vaccines which do not attack the disease (because the person is not infected at the time of vaccination) but rather the prophylaxis “trains” the body how to deal with the disease when it does come across it. Then there are fertility drugs; what are those surpressing?

My personal dislike of any particular word has nothing to do with this. As a matter of fact I don’t dislike the word “allopathy”, it’s got some letters arranged in a unique way and the vowels are outnumbered by consonants and it involves many different oral motions we use when pronouncing other words. By this, I mean that it is a perfectly ordinary word. There is nothing to dislike about it. However, where I must raise my objection is in the incorrect usage of the word.

So you are asking me to prove your point? You should tell me what you understand by the term “scientific” and then prove how homoeopathy agrees with your definition. Perhaps take the proffered hints from my previous post and try discover what the definition of “scientific” is for yourself. At the very least I might get you to read something other than a homoeopathy conspiracy theory for once (shock! horror!), perhaps something like an encyclopaedia?

I can also link to arbitrary articles, see for yourself: Baby death: call for homeopath rules

The article that you provided is a good start, but it is quite long. You are not engaging in a discusion with us, your primary tactic appears to be answering specific questions with vague references to mountains of text. We spend a long time writing these questions and you spend minutes just adding a line or two in reply and linking to another article. That is neither demonstrating your understanding of the question nor is it displaying your knowledge on the subject.

Perhaps put the best argument in your own words. Within your own phrasing of the proof, indicate quoted sections from articles which support your argument, but specific portions of text, not the whole thing. Traditionally, a reference would be to a page in a textbook, but with many websites you have provided in the past the entire text is on one page, making it an arduous task to read through all of the text and guess which particular statement or paragraph is related to your point.

In the case of the article you linked to here, I need more time to take apart the logical fallacies which hold it together. You have to understand that I might not have enough time to complete this until the weekend because I do have to work, but I will post pieces as I have time. I would like it if you would comment on where you see my analysis being wrong. That is the start of a discussion.

As a quick start, just a few thoughts:

There is some truth here, although perhaps a bit hyperbolic to label medication as “barbaric”. Outmoded surgery (like the leukotomy) I can understand, but which medication was labeled “barbaric”? Okay but the main point here is that scientists found the next generation of medication to replace the less-effective predecessor (not the ineffective predecessor). It was not homoeopaths who revealed that any particular medication was better suited to curing an ailment, thus promoting the replacement of the predecessor. This is not surprising, it is scientific progress. I wouldn’t trust modern medicine if it was still doing the all the same things it was doing 200 years ago, that is the hallmark of something being non-progressive and nonscientific.

I would like to know which treatment is “truly effective” and who said that. The sciences are always changing, we learn new and better ways of doing things all the time. There was a point in history when the arrogance of scientists lead to the assertion about 130 years ago that, bar one or two minor details, everything had been solved. This was at a time before knowledge of the big bang, relativity, genetics and psychology (to name a few). It is partly because of this minor embarrassment (and mostly because of the advent of the Philosophy of Science) that scientists no longer state that anything is the final answer. This allows medical scientists to have an open mind about future treatments which have an equal opportunity to become the next “best treatment” as long as the treatment is proven to work.

Err, I covered that, but it seems that the author prefers hostile wording.

Wow, my pharmacist is a magician; he can make a “handful” of medication look like a huge stock. There are something like four people moving in and out of the shelves back there and even with all that movement the illusion is flawless. Must be mirrors. I suppose that pharmacists must be illusionists, how else would they be able to do that?

Okay, that’s only two paragraphs from the thirty seven or so~ in the text. I will have to return to this when the “sarky” tone subsides, and I promise I will also name those fallacies on the weekend.

I am sorry that you have to work hard to pinpoint exactly. I will ensure it to be as closest to the point of reference.

At the time of father of homeopathy, there were around 100 medicines. Now, 200 years afterwards the research in homeopathy has leads to 30 times more medicines. So homeopathy is evolving scientifically.

The very kernel, indeed, of all that is wrong here. It is a mark of supreme arrogance and disdain for one’s opponent’s proficiency to meet legitimate objection with nothing more than curt misdirection and obfuscation.

With that in mind, back into the fray…

'Luthon64

At the risk of pre-empting AAH’s no doubt well considered reply, I must ask you Dr. Nancy Malik please to provide a comprehensive list of recognised clinical conditions that were identified, classified and for which diagnostic procedures were specified by homoeopaths.

Please read that request again carefully.

Because I have reason to suspect that you are being inordinately and quite consciously deceitful here. The vast majority of such clinical conditions, if not all of them, were catalogued by conventional, that is evidence-based, medicine. Homoeopathy’s Materia Medica has grown in sympathy with conventional medicine’s advances in knowledge, the growth in general affluence that has people attending to less immediate and/or less life-threatening ailments, as well as the phenomenal growth in world population. Therefore, to label such growth “scientific evolution” is an egregious misuse of both concepts.

'Luthon64

I think that your question goes directly to the heart of the matter and I don’t mind being pre-empted for such a revealing question.

I would like to echo the request for an answer to this question. Please, Dr. Malik, carefully consider 'Luthon’s question before answering. I imagine that the research into this matter may take a little time, so I (for one) am prepared to wait a few days (should you need that time) to research the matter. But I am very eager for your reply and I hope that you do not disappear for a few days and then stop participating in this forum before providing an answer.

Threatened abortion, Abscess, Acidity, Rosacea, Addison Disease, Adenoids, Albuminuria, Alcholism, Alopecia, Amenorrhoea, Anemia, Ill effects of anger, Affections of anus, Appendicitis, Appetite Disorders, Arthritis, Asthma, Astigmatism, Backache, Lichen Planus, Barber’s itch, Beri Beri, Affections of bones, Bowel obstruction, Billary Colic, Affections of bladder, Halitosis,Bright’s disease,…the list is endless

Hopefully this reply will get in early enough that you will have an opportunity to reply tonight Dr. Malik.

You are not reading the question. Which clinical conditions were discovered by a homoeopath?

  • Who discovered Acidity?
  • Who discovered Abscesses?
  • Who discovered Rosacea?
  • Addison’s Disease is named after the British physician Thomas Addison who described this condition in 1855. There is no record, that I could find, of him being a homoeopath.
  • Adenoids are a part of the body, and thus not a clinical condition.
  • Alcholism, Alopecia? Like Acidity, Rosacea and Absesses, these are conditions that were not “discovered” by physicians. These are not acceptable examples because you can’t name the person who discovered these conditions.

It is pointless continuing with this list.

How were you able to pass a qualifying exam if you are unable to read a question and write an appropriate response?

Answer the question again. Which clinical conditions were discovered by a homoeopath?

Homeopathy believes that there are an infinite number of diseases and symptoms. Nature does not follow stereotyped formats of diseases. Every new combination of symptoms constitutes a different disease. So not diseases, but grouping symptoms is considered important.

A typical disease starts much earlier than it is detectable. The early symptoms (quantum changes in our bodies) of a disease are not detectable by modern machines. Homeopaths do not wait for a disease to progress to an observable level by machines. They observe the objective and subjective symptoms.

Ugh, I think their text books state disease equals symptom and symptom equals condition. Also, if you don’t know what is wrong(i.e observe a symptom) make up a diagnosis based on the undetected symptoms ???.

So I guess the answer is that homeopaths have observed all the symptoms already. However, accurate description and determination of the cause is irrelevant.

However, Dr Malik you are still not answering the question. Which clinical conditions were discovered by a homoeopath? After all, you are selling cures for these conditions.

A response from two medical experts:

Acidity: There’s no such thing as having too much acidity; you can have a drop in pH resulting in acidity from specific illnesses such as lactic acidosis, diabetic ketoacidosis, etc. This is non-specific bullshit you can tell someone when you don’t know what’s wrong. No one’s ever described “acidity” as an illness.

Adenoids: These are an anatomical structure, not an illness. They’re inflamed in most upper respiratory tract infections as they’re part of the immune system. Sometimes they’re removed, like tonsils, because of persistent inflammation. Sushruta Samhita, a sixth century BC Sanskrit text on surgery, attributed to the “father of surgery”, Sushruta, contains various diseases of the eye, the ear, the nose and the head in the Salakya-tantra portion of the Uttara-tantra.

Alcoholism: It’s simply ridiculous to make a claim as to who noticed the first drunk person and said, “Hey! He’s got a problem.”

Alopecia and amenorrhea : These also belong in the above category. Hair has been falling out and women’s periods have been going missing ever since we climbed down from the trees. I suppose the first wig-maker could lay claim to identifying and treating alopecia. The commonest cause of amenorrhea is … pregnancy! How long have we been doing that!?

Ill effects of anger, affections of anus , backache , affections of bones, bowel obstruction and affections of bladder: These are all so non-specific that you couldn’t say who treated them as an illness first. The Hippocratic school of medicine described well the ailments of the human rectum and the treatment thereof. Sushruta also discusses certain surgical conditions of ano-rectal region. Sushruta was well aware of urinary stones, their varieties and the anatomy of the urinary bladder. Sushruta also describes surgery of intestinal (bowel) obstructions.

Addison Disease: The condition is named after Dr Thomas Addison, the British physician who first described the condition in 1855. Chronic adrenal insufficiency.

Beri beri: Christiaan Eijkman, a Dutch physician and pathologist, first demonstrated that beriberi is caused by poor diet. The disease was often found in Asian countries, especially in the 19th century and before.

Bright’s disease and Albuminuria: Bright’s disease is a historical classification of kidney diseases that would be described in modern medicine as acute or chronic nephritis. First described in 1827 by noted English physician Richard Bright.

Halitosis: The commonest cause of halitosis is psychogenic, so the homoeopaths can keep this one.

Astigmatism: Alhazen completes his Book of Optics in the year 1021, which made important advances in ophthalmology and eye surgery, as it correctly explained the process of visual perception for the first time.

Appendicitis: Claudius Aymand performs the first recorded successful appendectomy in 1763.

Some relevant highlights in the history of medicine, preceding homoeopathy: The Kahun Gynaecological Papyrus treats women’s complaints and problems with conception. The Canon of Medicine is a 14-volume Arabic medical encyclopaedia written by the Persian Muslim scientist and physician Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and completed in the year 1025! The Edwin Smith and Hearst Papyri deal with assorted medical issues. Ali ibn Sahl Rabban al-Tabari, a pioneer of paediatrics and the field of child development, writes the first encyclopaedia of medicine, ca. 838-870 AD. Abulcasis establishes surgery ca. 1000 AD as a profession in his Kitab al-Tasrif, which remains a standard textbook in Muslim and European universities until the 16th century. In 1596 Li Shizhen publishes Bencao Gangmù or Compendium of Materia Medica, containing 1,892 distinct herbs and other Materia Medica. There are some 11,096 side prescriptions to treat common illnesses.

It would seem then, Dr. Nancy Malik, that you also dispense truth only in homoeopathic dilutions.

'Luthon64