I'm a grumpy bastard - Pleased to meet you :)

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Hi there all,

I’m glad to have found a South African skeptic’s board :slight_smile:
I hope I can have many enlightening exchanges with my fellow skeptics.

I have two question:
Are all true skeptics atheists? (I am one by the way)
I ask because not all atheists are necessarily skeptics.

Is there a Skeptic’s Society in South Africa?

Greetings

SkepticOutcast

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Welcome.

I think atheism is one of several inevitable outcomes of a consistently skeptical mindset. I say “consistently”, because some talented folks are able to switch their skepticism on and off at will.

Rigil

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Hi and welcome! Grumpy is good, especially when directed at nonsense.

It’s not logically necessary that a sceptic should be an atheist, or vice versa (unless you’re partial to “no true Scotsman” type argumentation). IIRC, there’s a thread discussing this exact issue buried deep in the forum’s history somewhere, probably “Religion and Philosophy.” However, since scepticism tends to be all-encompassing, religious beliefs are rarely exempt from its withering scrutiny, and so the two are often strongly correlated, as Rigil suggests.

As far as a SA sceptical society is concerned, I’m not aware of any currently. George Claassen tried unsuccessfully to get a national one off the ground some years ago. At the moment, we’re a loose collection of semi-formal local groups. Too much room for individualism, I suspect. Organising sceptics has been described, not unjustly, as “trying to herd cats.”

'Luthon64

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Hi there Rigil,

Thanks for the welcome.

You wrote: I say “consistently”, because some talented folks are able to switch their skepticism on and off at will.

I agree. I have some more questions.
Do you think that the proportion of sceptics in South Africa is on par with developed nations or well below the norm?
What would that norm be? Is there a quantifiable percentage that you know of?
Something like 0.1% of America identify themselves as a skeptic blah blah blah.

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I think it depends to some extent on the religion in question. Religions that make testable statements about the physical universe tend to get more trouble from skeptics than ones that merely center around a vague sense of spirituality, whatever exactly that means. :slight_smile:

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Hi there Luthon,

You wrote: “As far as a SA sceptical society is concerned, I’m not aware of any currently. George Claassen tried unsuccessfully to get a national one off the ground some years ago.”
Thats a shame. Would love to be a card carrying member of such an organization.
Herding Cats, lol :slight_smile:

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Hi there Brian,

You wrote: “Religions that make testable statements about the physical universe tend to get more trouble from skeptics”
Well most religions make claims about origins of man/the universe etc., have you ever come accross any that do not? I ask this seriously.

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If by skeptics you mean individuals who identify (or privately think of) themselves as such, then I’m guessing that South African numbers are somewhat below developed nations. But we could be a smidgen ahead on the African continent. This is just based on casual observation and I have no numbers to back it up.

What would that norm be? Is there a quantifiable percentage that you know of?

No idea. Forced to take a wildly optimistic stab, I’d say 5% worldwide and 2% locally.

Rigil

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I am no expert on religion, but it seems to me many educated religious folks have gone sort of New Agey with it. The origin myths are no longer seen as literal truth, you no longer have to believe in only one particular religion (or indeed any religion) to get to heaven and so on. They have watered down their religion to a general sort of “wow-ness” about life, the universe and everything.

But of course it differs from one individual to the next.

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Hi and welcome

Two things I have noted that may aid you:

You can click on the “quote” button of someone’s post (top right) and then you don’t have to write the: XXX, you wrote; “blah blah blah” bit. With a little practice you can use copy and paste and reply to many people in one post. [This works on most forums]

You are actually allowed to say fuck and shit. No need for ****.

I know. It is fucking awesome! :smiley:

hope you enjoy your stay here

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welcome skepticoutcast: on this forum the only outcasts are those who can’t take the heat. enjoy the ride and looking forward to your contributions

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Hi scepticoutcsdt! Welcome!

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Hey by the way, welcome.

This isn’t about skeptics per se, but the athiest census did gather a wee bit of data on atheists. If you go to their site you’ll find a link at the top for country-specific data. They had about 1600 people self-report from SA.

Also, you can look at the CIA world factbook entry for South Africa, which lists under “People and Society” an estimated 15.1% of SA as non-religious. However that probably doesn’t have a lot to do with skepticism. I feel it might be better than I think when I read that.

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I strongly suspect that that’s a misclassification artefact (and I think this has come up before). The fact book indicates that the figures were taken from 2001 census data. However, the census questionnaire probably didn’t make a sufficient distinction between “None” and “Other” (even though the fact book lists both categories). Many people in SA hold cultural beliefs that are very obviously religious, e.g. ancestor worship, but which don’t involve deities and which therefore don’t slot easily into the usual religious denomination pigeonholes, and so could easily end up as “None”. The holders of such beliefs wouldn’t usually think of themselves as religious in that regard for much the same reason that scientologists, mediums, bone-throwers and other mystical mumbo-jumbo merchants and believers resist a likewise categorisation.

The flipside is that many in SA who classify themselves as one or other variety of Christian, say, also hold similar ancillary cultural beliefs that are actually incompatible with Christian teachings. All in all, such self-identification data are unreliable because (1) they are subjective, (2) different people interpret them differently, and (3) the definitional criteria are invariably too vague. Take with a great big shovel-full of salt.

'Luthon64

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Hi there all,

I’m going to give a collective hello to all and answer and ask questions in the same e-mail. By the way, I’m sorry it showed me to be online the whole day. I forgot to log out.

Hi there Rigil,

No idea. Forced to take a wildly optimistic stab, I'd say 5% worldwide and 2% locally.
I appreciate your boldness in taking a stab at it :)

To Brian

I am no expert on religion, but it seems to me many educated religious folks have gone sort of New Agey with it.
The big electron :) Sam Harris seems to like the Buddhist way of thinking. He brings it up in some of his talks, and he's an atheist.
on this forum the only outcasts are those who can't take the heat. enjoy the ride and looking forward to your contributions
Well I chose the name outcast for a reason. I am a person who through my whole life has stood separate from the group. Perhaps I’ll get into that at some point. Well I hope I can contribute in a meaningful way.

Hi there cyghost

You can click on the "quote" button of someone's post (top right) and then you don't have to write the: XXX, you wrote;
Duly noted J
You are actually allowed to say freck and shit. No need for ****.
Well tits and disco J

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Hi there Faerie :slight_smile:

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Hi there Boogiemonter,

Thanks for the two links. Most insightful. I agree with 'Luthon64 that the 15% is probably misstated. My own experience on the matter is that 99.9% (1 out of 1000) of the people that I have met believe in a deity of some sort. In the past year I have met only one new atheist. But then again I’m on the Northern side of the Boerewors curtain so that is to be expected I suppose.

Thanks for the comment ‘Luthon64. Are you site admin?

To all of you thank you for the warm welcome. May I say it is refreshing to know that there are skeptics in our South African society. And it makes me feel better to know that there are others who use critical thinking to arrive at answers to difficult questions.

May I also give you a caution. I was raised as a religious person with all the foibles and magical thinking that goes with that. Now certainly I have tried to get rid of my superstitions and magical beliefs, however I cannot be certain that I have expunged all the vestiges of a bygone upbringing. So please bear with me and try to be patient if I go off the rails :slight_smile:

SO

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Hey Skepticoutcast

Welcome, always nice to see new avatars around this place.

Where you from, and what do you do?

Well Buddhism does not make a claim about origin.

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Hey there cr1t,

Where you from, and what do you do?
Pretoria, technician.

Well Buddhism does not make a claim about origin.
You see I covered my ass very carefully with my statement :)
Well most religions make claims about origins of man/the universe etc.
Perhaps not about the universe, but about the origin of man definitely. The Agganna Sutta.
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No, that would be bluegray.

'Luthon64

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Yes I’m not an expert on the religion my self, was more a stab in the dark. :smiley:

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Yes I’m not an expert on the religion my self, was more a stab in the dark.
I too have a large deficit when it comes to the understanding of Buddhism and other religions which are not Christianity. The only reason I claim more understanding of Christianity is because I was raised in a Christian household and had a Christian school education.