Well, I’m do not have the competency to develop such an alternative studies programme, as I’m not a teacher and am largely ignorant about the operations of the education system, however this doesn’t mean we can’t do something, what about approaching the court as a friend of the court? Think it’s called amicus - something, don’t know if we practice the concept in SA, but I know it’s a British concept and I also know our legal system is also based on English law, plus we are a modern country with a modern constitution, so I can’t see that would not have incorporated this concept.
Anyway if we do practice this friend of the court thing, I think it may be a great idea to maybe influence the outcome of a case like this through making suggestions and offering alternatives and compromises like the stuff you came up with, Rigil.
secular studies won’t work as it smacks of opposition to religious studies: IMHO we need to cultivate critical thinking in schools. Lots of research has been done around this and it is a neutral subject (although vested interests may see it too as an attempt to create dissension). There are societies that promote it:
It includes the ability to engage in reflective and independent thinking. Someone with critical thinking skills is able to do the following : understand the logical connections between ideas;identify, construct and evaluate arguments;detect inconsistencies and common mistakes in reasoning; solve problems systematically; identify the relevance and importance of ideas;reflect on the justification of one’s own beliefs and values. (extracted from http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/critical/ct.php)
It should not be confused with being argumentative or being critical of other people. Although critical thinking skills can be used in exposing fallacies and bad reasoning, critical thinking can also play an important role in cooperative reasoning and constructive tasks.
It’s called amicus curiae and the concept is practised in SA. However, the courts always look closely at the bona fides and standing of such “friends” before deciding on whether to consider their input. It’s unlikely that a loose and informal affiliation like this forum would enjoy any traction with the courts.
Also, following the example of the Dept of Basic Education, many schools are very reluctant, if not actively opposed, to allow unaccredited individuals or organisations access to their pupils. You can give private tuition at your home or at private premises if pupils come to you but if you offer to augment a school’s curriculum without the correct qualifications and paperwork in hand, you’ll run squarely into a stone wall, regardless how noble, well-intentioned or generous your offer may be.
I recall from my own days in secondary school that we had these “lewensoriëntering” (life skillls?) classes for 45 minutes a week, where some unfortunate teacher were tasked with coaching us hooligans in everything from writing checks to birth control and table manners. Not sure if those are still around, or even why I’m mentioning them.
Anyhow, I agree that critical thinking, or even philosophy in general, would make a sterling alternative to praying.
Pity, but understandable I suppose. Then they should just shift the religious fests to the last period and allow the secular kids to go home.
I think this is where we come full circle. Critical thinking was taught to me in school: During science class, maybe more indirectly during maths, and I’ll even credit our history classes for discussing the Renaissance. I remember reading up on the principles of it and being impressed by the throwing off of shackles to critical thinking and suppression of contrary ideas. And the broad improvement in the world that came as a result. Remember, I was still religious at this point. But already could see how a secular society could be a great improvement.
Come to think of it, each in it’s own small way, it may have changed the way I think forever and at an early age.
The problem we face is that the religious want to invade science class, politicos have an agenda in the history class, etc. Perhaps exactly because as you point out: They see truth and reason as a threat. And let’s be honest: It is, to their outmoded ways of thinking.
If you ask me (and you didn’t, but if you did…) this is where the fight starts, and should start. Yes I had compulsory religious instruction, compulsory sermons every monday morning (even as a christian it got over the top for me sometimes), compulsory praying and religiously zealous teachers. But I credit those few teachers who encouraged me to think outside the box… at least some of the time. They lead me on a path that eventually led to the abandonment of all that stuff.
Besides, I don’t mind a christian who can also see the value of a secular state, who can accommodate opposing ideas, etc. It’s the fundies I have beef with.
Guess at this point I’m agreeing a bit too vociferously.
I agree, I have the same feeling about doing something in a positive manner, I don’t think a O’Hair-type argument/person will easily succeed in our country and besides you don’t want to be labeled an evil atheist or satanist, there’s enough of that going around already, can you imagine how much worse things like that would get if do succeed in “taking god out of schools” completely, Madilyn O’Hair style?
In my experience, the Jews, Hindus and Muslims I’ve met are for more open to discuss things, is far more secularized and tolerant of others than the best christian fundamentalist I can think of, but this also just proves the kind of special treatment CHRISTIANITY gets and the arrogance of the “Xtian right” (christen reg) - the privelage they enjoy to openly proselytize and force their beliefs down everyone’s throats, and the stake they claim for not allowing any criticism, and still they make themselves out to be the persecuted.
Case in point: Just yesterday I watched the news and saw how the muslim community along with human rights groups came together to openly distance themselves from extremism, on the interview on tv, the muslim spokeswoman also made a reference for among other, atheists to come and stand in solidarity with them, closest I can come is: eNCA Also, interestingly, Cape Town is to open the first interfaith mosque - Cape Times Still, just talking to people of other faiths have proven again and again how much more tolerant they are, suppose because we’re not living in a muslim-state, a jewish-state, buddhist-state or jedi-state, but a christian-state [secular state.
if you offer to augment a school’s curriculum without the correct qualifications and paperwork in hand, you’ll run squarely into a stone wall, regardless how noble, well-intentioned or generous your offer may be.
I am doing this as a job and it's not too difficult to get in, but with most schools it's only the kids that pay that attend my shows, or when the school pay, everyone of course get included. The school will not pay for a selected few (especially if they go against the school's "one size fits all" thinking) and some of those atheist kids will not pay, so now you have three groups to look after.
For those of you in Cape Town, UCT’s Philosophy Department has been running a critical thinking thing in schools for years now. It’s been a while since I actively engaged with it, but Greg Fried is the person to ask about what they are doing, and whether they need help.
Tweefo, correct me if I’m mistaken but you’re not an official part of any school’s curriculum. You’re more like a visit to the museum — except that you’re the museum visiting the kids.
Correct, but it’s not like I have a university or whole museum organization behind me. I do sneak in a bit of critical thinking though. Was asked “if mermaids were real” the other day. That lead to a good 15 min discussion on not believing anything you see or hear, why you need evidence and so on. That was from a Gr6 girl by the way, and what that had to do with astronomy, I still don’t know.
Yeah, schools don’t really say no if you want to give extra-curricular activities or do shows/performances, that’s the whole incentive for these religious bands and missionary-type groups to tour to all the schools as a career.
I really hope this courtcase ends up in the constitutional court, because that’s where the main focus should be, wish we could turn this “taking god out of school” into a more clear rights issue, because that’s what it’s all about for me, not taking god out specifically, but improving equality and fairness in these matters, as right now it’s fair to say that non-christians are very much discriminated against in public schools, I don’t even think there are public, state owned muslim or jewish schools, are there?
Funny thing is, just a few days ago a grade 6 girl asked ME whether mermaids are real. Perhaps there have been mermaids on TV or something.
As for the relevance to astronomy, I am used to it by now that kids ask the weirdest, random questions that have nothing whatever to do with what you are teaching them. Meaning of course that they were not paying attention!
Funny enough, there was a mermaid hoax youtube that made the news a couple of months ago
Perhaps it’s not so strange to ask astronomy questions in biology class, seeing how all that “science stuff” gets generally jumbled together when parents warn their kids not to pay any attention to that “science stuff” but just belief in jesus, honey, kiss, kiss… otherwise you’re gonna burn in hell forever >:D
FYI, I’ll be taking/debating with Andrew Selley (of FOR SA, who are offended by OGOD’s lawsuit regarding secular schooling) on Eusebius’s PowerFM show on Friday at 10am.
This whole topic needs to be kept in the public eye with as many people commenting on the misinformation being published in much of the press. In 2009 George Claasen suddenly deleted his blog “Prometheus Ongebonde” without giving any reason to those who were regular visitors. It was rumored that his posts about religion in schools had not set well with various groups and that pressure was brought on his family by the fundamental groups involved. If this was the case we all owe it to him and his family to continue with this process. I am surprised that it has taken another four or five years for this to happen.
I was in contact with George and he admitted that his family and himself personally were threatened with their lives; needs to put bread on the table and consequently he shut up…sad at so many levels.
Seriously, well done. You do seem to have a knack for elucidating your points quite gracefully and, as much as possible, not kicking the hornet’s nest. As I’ve hinted before, it’s not something I myself “excel” in. Respect.
I’m quite surprised, although I shouldn’t be given our diverse country, how many people out there actually agree. Sure you get the odd guy phoning in going “Religion good, hmkay?”, most of them seem to see the point in one way or another.
